Scuderia Ferrari SF71H

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
Moose
Moose
52
Joined: 03 Oct 2014, 19:41

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF71H

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Powy wrote:
03 Mar 2018, 23:55
A post on reddit titled Could this be the secret behind Ferrari's mirrors? links to the interesting thesis Low Drag Automotive Mirror Using Passive Flow Jet Control, Greg Woyczynski, University of Miami

From the thesis on page 6:
1.2 Concept of the Jet Mirror
The new concept mirror using jet flow control [4,5,6] is aimed at reducing the drag of
conventional mirrors by using a passive flow jet control technique similar to those used
for high lift slotted airfoils of aircraft [13].
Page 7 and 8 of the thesis include images of a mirror similar to the Ferrari mirror (page 19/89 of the PDF document).
Nailed it - this is exactly Ferrari's design, and a much more plausible explanation than Ted's bullshit "it's redirecting air directly across this flow of extremely high speed air into the sidepod"

Nexus1011
Nexus1011
0
Joined: 20 Sep 2017, 09:07

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF71H

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Motorsport Italy: Ferrari has increased it's wheelbase by a lot, it's only 2 to 3 cm shorter than Mercedes this year, compared to 16 cm last year

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferra ... 2012&tmm=1

Well this is interesting...new SF71H is only 2 to 3 cm behind Mercedes in terms of wheelbase?

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Mr.G
34
Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 22:52
Location: Slovakia

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF71H

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Moose wrote:
04 Mar 2018, 00:01
Powy wrote:
03 Mar 2018, 23:55
A post on reddit titled Could this be the secret behind Ferrari's mirrors? links to the interesting thesis Low Drag Automotive Mirror Using Passive Flow Jet Control, Greg Woyczynski, University of Miami

From the thesis on page 6:
1.2 Concept of the Jet Mirror
The new concept mirror using jet flow control [4,5,6] is aimed at reducing the drag of
conventional mirrors by using a passive flow jet control technique similar to those used
for high lift slotted airfoils of aircraft [13].
Page 7 and 8 of the thesis include images of a mirror similar to the Ferrari mirror (page 19/89 of the PDF document).
Nailed it - this is exactly Ferrari's design, and a much more plausible explanation than Ted's bullshit "it's redirecting air directly across this flow of extremely high speed air into the sidepod"
It's not exactly the Ferrari design, they have the top edge extruded...
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

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ringo
230
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF71H

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I have just had a good look at this car, sorry if it was mentioned before, but the mirrors seem to influence the rear wing more than the sidepods.
Have a look from the front view. The mirrors work in conjunction with the rear wing at high speed to reduce drag by affecting the end plates of the rear wing. Air enters the front of the mirror and is channeled to the outer ends of the mirror then towards the rear wing.
Maybe there is drag reduction itself for the mirror or reduced vibration of the mirror at speed, but seems like a very small effect to spend so much effort on.
For Sure!!

manchild
manchild
12
Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF71H

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Regarding mirrors :mrgreen:

First of all, their size or the size of aperture is not tiny. Just remember Mclaren's really tiny F duct inlet and how huge impact it had on overall performance.

Also, I'm absolutely sure that they are definitely not used for driver cooling, since it has to be done at the front of the monocoque, not at its end.

They might not guide the air into sidepods exclusively for basically persumed radiator cooling, I mean, they could have separate ducting for cooling of electronics or whatever.

When it matters as some suggested that they also guide the air into top sidepod inlets, I agree on that but with a theory of mine:

I think that mirrors are designed to choke on high speeds which completely changes the airflow behind them, with possible desired effect of not guiding the air into top sidepod inlets, thus lowering the drag. If turbulence they create at high speeds/straights decreases the drag of the rear wing, while not doing so at lower speeds/corners, thus aiding the cooling, than they are ingeniously multipractic.

In case my semantics sucked so far, let me explain it like this.

1. At low and medium speeds, in corners, when the DF is highly desired, they clean the air that reaches the rear wing by reducing the turbulence, and by picking it up and also by conditioning it into top sidepod inlets, they also improve the cooling.

2. At high speeds, on straights, when DF and rear wing drag is least desired, they choke, stop conditioning the air into top sidepod inlets (lowers the inlet-caused drag) and cause even more turbulence than conventional mirrors, which results in decreased ability of rear wing to create DF and undesired drag that rear wing creates while generating DF.

Another possibility could be that they can't condition the air into top sidepod inlets until they choke, and with that reduce the amount of air that reaches rear wing, thus increasing speed by decreasing the DF/drag. That would also mean that top sidepod inlet has separate ducting that passes the air to the rear end of the car without hitting the radiators, in order to bypass the rear wing at top speeds.

Basically, I think that overall goal is higher top speed, with more DF on low and medium speeds, which is everyone's dream.

Oh yes, someone asked me about the overcoming the sidepod's pressure... Well if my theory is correct, than they are not even intended to be able to pass the air trough ducting at high/top speeds, since they should choke as explained.
Last edited by manchild on 04 Mar 2018, 03:13, edited 6 times in total.

Powy
Powy
27
Joined: 26 May 2015, 13:09

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF71H

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Here are two videos showing the flow for the regular and the "Jet Boat Tail Flow Control Mirror":





manchild
manchild
12
Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF71H

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Nope. The air doesn't just pass trough mirror fairing.
They pick up the air and duct it trought branches.
Take a look at this pic, and than find me another car with 6 screws holding the mirror to a monocoque with such a huge plate.
Image

mmred
mmred
-3
Joined: 25 Apr 2017, 14:19

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF71H

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Guys, the conversation about new Ferrari s mirror is pointing exactly to aliens


As for serious considerations, even the best aerodynamic fan here took a giant leap into nothingness

It s clearly merely a drag reduction system
Clearly

No internal ducts- fact reported by third party observers but already evident from the simple observation that any fluid activator in the mirrors would be extremely inefficient in the after piping and not anymore advantageous than any other slot opening on the monocoque

No impressive deviation to the flow downward, they are basically last year external shape and while they acted as deviators with their underside, they did it very softly to avoid drag ( and Ferrari due to its pu can't afford same mercedes drag coefficients... )
Also since their underside is free from driver vision impairments they could make them very longer if the reason was directing the flow with their internal part or even their outer shell, and they didn't , they increased the upper outer shell length, that is the one with more neutral AOA!

It s fact that the inner shape acts slightly as a negative profile here, cause it creates more pression upper than under, being shifted with its leading edge toward the bottom, and it can't even rotate with speed to adapt and reduce this load and drag cause it s fixed vertically

But of course if you ask me " it s aliens "
And you even isolate the few ones that tell it s not aliens and persecute him as an uninteresting commenter... Well maybe reality isn't uninteresting just because conspiracies are not involved at every step

manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF71H

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mmred wrote:
04 Mar 2018, 07:20
Guys, the conversation about new Ferrari s mirror is pointing exactly to aliens...
It seams to me that conversation bothers you in a way that you actually don't like the fact that an interesting technical solution is being discussed.

Is it the jealousy of not figuring it out first, dislike for creative thinking, or fan-based fear that Ferrari's secret weapon is being outed?

If it is as you wrote "clearly merely just a drag reduction system" with no ducting, than please go ahead and elaborate why the branches are so thick and wide, and why are mirrors attached to monocoque with 6 screws each via huge plate?

Mentioning of aliens is a sign of lack of arguments, and an attempt to label those who disagree with you as some silly conspiracy theorists.

I'm not trying to stop people from thinking what they want, just sticking to my thought. You're actually saying "stop debating" (for whatever the reason).

This is a forum, a place for debate, so let it be.
If we were to swallow all the official explanations and even those suggested by some specialized media, we still wouldn't know about the majority of truth.

When media explained Ferrari's nose in 2008. in a way they did, I kept saying "no that is wrong" and I was right. It took several months before the car was presented and finally confirmed by Piola's drawing.

forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4589

These are just some of other places where it was mentioned afterwards, by these bloggers:

http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2008/04 ... forum.html

http://turboeng.blogspot.com/2008/05/fe ... nuity.html
Last edited by manchild on 04 Mar 2018, 11:21, edited 1 time in total.

mmred
mmred
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Joined: 25 Apr 2017, 14:19

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF71H

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manchild wrote:
04 Mar 2018, 10:58
mmred wrote:
04 Mar 2018, 07:20
Guys, the conversation about new Ferrari s mirror is pointing exactly to aliens...
It seams to me that conversation bothers you in a way that you actually like the fact that an interesting technical solution is being discussed.

Is it the jealousy of not figuring it out first, dislike for creative thinking, or fan-based fear that Ferrari's secret weapon is being outed?

If it is as you wrote "clearly merely just a drag reduction system" with no ducting, than please go ahead and elaborate why the branches are so thick and wide, and why are mirrors attached to monocoque with 6 each screws via huge plate?

Mentioning of aliens is a sign of lack of arguments, and an attempt to label those who disagree with you as some silly conspiracy theorists.

I'm not trying to stop people from thinking what they want, just sticking to my thought. You're actually saying "stop debating" I don't like it (for whatever the reason).

This is a forum, a place for debate, so let it be.
If we were to swallow all the official explanations and even those suggested by some specialized media, we still wouldn't know about the majority of truth.

When media explained Ferrai's nose in 2008. in a way they did, I kept saying "no that is wrong" and I was right. It took several months before the car was presented and finally confirmed by Piola's drawing.

forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4589

These are just some of other places where it was mentioned afterwards, by these bloggers:

http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2008/04 ... forum.html

http://turboeng.blogspot.com/2008/05/fe ... nuity.html
Envy, 2008, too many screws, debate stopping?

Ok man the only relevant argument is the screws , but that part is placed in that way from last year, and there was no open geometry last year.

2008 is 2008, every year some rule bending happens or some creative solution, but it doesn't make true any hilarious claim about 2018.

Fact is I ve seen you playing victim and actually trying to silence the only poster, before me, repeating the basic common sense that it is just a drag reduced mirror.
Bye

manchild
manchild
12
Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF71H

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mmred wrote:
04 Mar 2018, 11:21
Envy, 2008, too many screws, debate stopping?
...
There was just 4 screws in 2017 and much smaller plate.

Image

No, it's not stopping just because you disagree with opinions of other people. As you can see, I'm not trying to silence anyone.

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Mr.G
34
Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 22:52
Location: Slovakia

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF71H

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manchild wrote:
04 Mar 2018, 10:58
...than please go ahead and elaborate why the branches are so thick and wide, and why are mirrors attached to monocoque with 6 screws each via huge plate?
Obviously the mirrors are new and they want to have options to change them easily. If they will be proven as working and no more development is needed, they will be integrated into the side... This 6 screw setup allow them to move the mirror back by ~10cm and easy swap the mirrors with different shape or the regular one for comparison.
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

paddyf1
paddyf1
5
Joined: 17 Sep 2010, 13:34

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF71H

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The mirror is being held by 6 screws because of the load going through the mirror or they dont want it to move or flex, how its bolted to the chassis is in my opinion irrelevant.

paddyf1
paddyf1
5
Joined: 17 Sep 2010, 13:34

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF71H

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Surely this is the place to discuss things like this? Surely this is the place you can come and share ideas and theories without being shot down and made to feel like an idiot?

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Vanja #66
1569
Joined: 19 Mar 2012, 16:38

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF71H

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Body panels are completely different on 2018 car compared to 2017. First of all, the entire side pod inlet is removable now, instead of only top part like in 2017. Second, there is a partially perpendicular leading edge on side pods now, so the mirror plate is extended to compensate this lack of bodywork. Two rearmost screws are too far away from mirror to have any significant effect on structural rigidity, i.e. front and middle pair of screws take all the load. This is because of mirror panel geometry being shaped as an L profile and it has a very sound, inherently stiff, geometry. So the load on screws, in general, isn't that big to begin with - as you can imagine by looking at their size.

To conclude, rear screws are structurally irrelevant.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie