For the record, I'm not calling anybody illiterate. Let's not blow that out of proportion.manchild wrote: ↑04 Mar 2018, 16:53@turbof1
I'm not an aerodynamicist, athough I have formal automotive education.
One of the things life teached me is that you can sometimes learn things even from the illiterate people, while sometimes you can't learn a thing from those with university degree.
Analytical thinking is something one is born with as a natural gift, but there is no such thing as educational method that makes thinkers out of ungifted.
I'm not denying knowledge of the professionals, but some of them are extremely narrow-minded, and strictly limited to what they've been thought, without the ability to analyze new things and think out of the box. Not to mention lack of creativity.
So, I like to learn new stuff from whomever, but I also have no respect to authority if they can't backup their claims.
Some things are so obvuious, but vanity and the ego prevent them to at least publically admit that they were wrong or that someone without a degree has come up with something they weren't able.
An example of what I'm talking about - Absolute majority of electro engineers wouldn't be able to make same gadgets Tesla has made 120 years ago if they would be given only tools and materials he had at disposal. On the other hand, there are self-thought people with just elementary or secondary education who are simply able to do those things.
As long there is logic instread of authoritative or biased imposition, I'm ready to listen and accept.
I mean what he says is true. If they goal is to redirect flow to the pods, why not just lower the mirror? Or change the profile of the mirror into a more suitable shape? He also hits the nail on the heat as you don't want to use turbulent airflow for cooling, which is exactly what's coming off the mirrors. Cooling works best with undisturbed flow. That's not a new concept. I can remember people mentioning this as far back as 10 years ago.Vanja #66 wrote: ↑02 Mar 2018, 00:44Mirror brackets, in my opinion, most likely guide the air towards that top inlet. I've written already a bit on mirrors here, but I'll gladly add to it.
http://i64.tinypic.com/33a4adi.jpg
This is the first mirror bracket design in 2017, and as far as I remember, only used in winter testing. Throughout the season, Ferrari used the same bracket design as current one. Design on picture is lifting the mirrors as high up as possible and is using additional flap to get some of the air flowing on the inner side of mirror bracket (closer to the driver) to the top inlet. Current design is doing that as well, but with a curved design they are using more air for less drag (slots induce drag, that flap in launch spec design caused a vortex which induced drag as well) and have lowered the mirrors for better visibility (look how far down the list their primary function lies).
As for current mirror fairing design, it's there to reduce drag. If they wanted to move the air from the mirror to the inlet with this design, they'd lower the mirrors even more. Mirror position (in terms of height) hasn't changed from last year's final design. Last year mirrors weren't flow-trough, ergo - they were a problem, they caused turbulence (as ever) and they needed to be as high as possible not to obstruct air flow, but as low as possible not to hinder driver visibility even further.
To end this with something basic - you don't want turbulent air in your radiator intake and even if you did, you can't make it go to the high pressure zone of top inlet.
Some things are simple, some are not and not everything in F1 is complicated.
Could you elaborate this? Interesting idea. How can a channel or a duct get choked in an open system exactly?
Choking occurs when the speed/amount of air surpass the capacity of duct. The pressure increases to the point when air begins turbulently spilling over the duct entrance and because of that the duct can't pass it trough.
actually the window inner shel is exactly designed that way to prevent it from stop functioning at high speedsmanchild wrote: ↑04 Mar 2018, 20:16Choking occurs when the speed/amount of air surpase the capacity of duct. The pressure increases to the point when air begins turbulently spilling over the duct entrance and because of that the duct can't pass it trough.
Longer duct of the same diameter as the shorter one, has lower capacity and will choke sooner, because it takes more time for the identical amount of air to pass trough it.
If you've ever dived using snorkel, you've likely noticed that it is easier to breathe trough shorter snorkel than trough longer one. That's the principle.
there s just a problem with that drawingDownforce wrote: ↑04 Mar 2018, 20:26Well, I think that their function is somewhat combined...they are decreasing drag and increasing flow to the radiators...
https://imgur.com/mwaISiY
https://imgur.com/mwaISiY
Small gaps are used in some form of a nozzles. They are increasing velocity of the flow with the speed Vn.That speed is larger than the incoming speed of the free air VF, so they are using this flow to decrease speed of the incoming free air an to increase its pressure just above the sidepod inlet. The aren't using air behind and below the rear view mirror (turbulent one) - they are using clean air in front of it.Upper part of the mirror is also diverging air in the same manner. Angle of the this "nozzle" flow is tuned to follow contour of the sidepods, and in same time decrease drag of the mirrors.
Mirror stand is also used to divert free air into this zone above the sidepod inlet, and downwards towards the floor, following the upper surface of the sidepods.
Mounting on the chassis is deliberately made like that so that they could finely tune this.
deviators or front wings complex tunnels usually dont chokemanchild wrote: ↑04 Mar 2018, 21:16With just a tiny space under or even all around the mirror plate but without ducting, it would choke on like 50-100kph, and the dust, rubber and rain would devastate it. With ducting it would occur on much higher speeds.
Someone with CFD could easily test it.
I don't have any.
I'm a visual mathematician
Of course they don't choke, they are not within a box with huge inlet and tiny outlet.mmred wrote: ↑04 Mar 2018, 21:30deviators or front wings complex tunnels usually dont chokemanchild wrote: ↑04 Mar 2018, 21:16With just a tiny space under or even all around the mirror plate but without ducting, it would choke on like 50-100kph, and the dust, rubber and rain would devastate it. With ducting it would occur on much higher speeds.
Someone with CFD could easily test it.
I don't have any.
I'm a visual mathematician
ask yourself why
there s a reason why you are a mathematcian and not a cfd master
What you've described isn't exactly what I've heard and read before about chocking a ducting, very close though. Chocking, as far as I know, occurs when you surpass the maximum mass flow of air in a duct - as you said. Radiator intake is one such example, radiator core has a certain maximal mass flow and it can't be surpassed. As the car speeds up, mass flow trough the inlet would get bigger because of bigger air velocity, so inlet surface effectively shrinks - causing spilling as you mention.manchild wrote: ↑04 Mar 2018, 20:16Choking occurs when the speed/amount of air surpass the capacity of duct. The pressure increases to the point when air begins turbulently spilling over the duct entrance and because of that the duct can't pass it trough.
Longer duct of the same diameter as the shorter one, has lower capacity and will choke sooner, because it takes more time for the identical amount of air to pass trough it.
If you've ever dived using snorkel, you've likely noticed that it is easier to breathe trough shorter snorkel than trough longer one. That's the principle.