2018 Azerbaijan GP - Verstappen, Ricciardo clash

[foxmulder_ms]

Verstappen already driving on the left side of the track- covering the inside line, than he moves a bit to de middle and moves back to the left.. that is allowed.

Only seeing what you want to see as usual!

Wow?!! The video is just there?!!
Please show me where I see things as I want them to see..

The whole back straight Max drove on the left.. so that was his racing line, he moves a bit to the middle and moves back to his racing line, which was the left side at the time.

How hard can it be?

Apparently pretty hard mate. Two moves are NOT allowed. Well they used to be not allowed. It is clear. FIA making their own rules farce is their problem. Max jumped on the dummy Ric made, hahaaa. Then Max tried to cover his mistake by going back but too late ==> turned into a crash. Frankly, as I said, If I were Ricc I would 100% leave RedBull. Their #1 is Max, they are still protecting him by not punishing him. Clear.

[George-Jung]

The racing line is not a fixed thing; it is the line you’re racing at the moment of time from where onwards you could make ‘moves’.. because you are always allowed to move back to side from where you initiated the move (incase there is room).

Actually, the racing line most commonly referred to the quickest way around the track, which will be pretty equal for 90% of the time for all cars.

Yes what Phil said, 100%.

Sure.. so where is the racing line for example in wet races?

[JonoNic]

Actually, the racing line most commonly referred to the quickest way around the track, which will be pretty equal for 90% of the time for all cars.

Yes what Phil said, 100%.

Sure.. so where is the racing line for example in wet races?

Hmmm. Racing lines in the wet are different because the track has been rubbered in on the actual racing line. Your argument is going nowhere.

[foxmulder_ms]

Actually, the racing line most commonly referred to the quickest way around the track, which will be pretty equal for 90% of the time for all cars.

Yes what Phil said, 100%.

Sure.. so where is the racing line for example in wet races?

As smart as Max ;P

Accept it mate. Max bite the dummy and caused to crush

Anyhow since Redbull is still protecting him I guess he is right. I guess I would have done the same if there is no consequences whatsoever.

[George-Jung]

When you have 90% off ppl on all major f1 forums, and 90% of journalists on all major f1 sites telling you one thing,
your inability to even consider that you are wrong is beyond me.

I won't bother explain the reasons that you wrong.

Well.. because I learnd to think for myself.. and I disagree about the 90% your claiming- but I have to behonest I don’t use Facebook.

[Andres125sx]

In a statement issued by the stewards, they noted that Verstappen had made two moves to defend his position
[...]
Both drivers expressed regret about their respective contributions to the incident, during the Stewards' hearing.

RBR needs both cars in the points to have any chance at all to get P2 in the constructor's championship. A penalty against Verstappen would have been detrimental. The stewards acknowledged that Verstappen made two moves. I'm thinking that RBR offered some kind of incentive to Ricciardo to get him to accept some of the blame, to avoid a penalty against Verstappen.

Agree, I can´t understand how Ricciardo admitted some culpability. If he made the move too late as he expressed, then the defending move from Max to the left is even later, wich means, while braking.

There´re no rule restricting movements from the chasing car, at the straight or while braking, one, two or seven, and soon or late, no rule at the respect. But there´s a rule wich does not allow to move while braking, so it does not matter how late was Daniel movement, but it´s crucial if Max reacted after that, while braking


This is another episode of "how politics can ruin F1"

[Phil]

Even so, you're ignoring the obvious, and that is Verstappen's reactive driving. Dan pulls to the right, Max follows to the right (and opens the gap on the left). Dan pulls to the left, Verstappen pulls back to the left. However small those movements are, Dan reacted back to them and ultimately was committed to a move that no longer worked.

EDIT: And no, it isn't legal. One move is allowed to stop this from happening, other wise you could pretty much use your car as a dynamic obstacle and prevent any overtake from happening (at the risk of provoking a dangerous accident).

Isn’t racing always ‘reactive driving’- at least when you’re attack/defending??

What you described is exactly what always happens when defending? You are allowed one move ánd back.. resulting in two moves in total.

Not quite. The one-defensive-move isn't to allow "blocking". Blocking is always going to be dangerous and is no way to defend. The one-defensive-move is to force drivers to commit to either defending the outside or the inside line into a corner. I.e. if you want to secure the inside line, you can but then you should need to stay there.

The "move back to the racing line" is somewhat tolerated as long as you are not crowding a car, you leave space or if you do it if there's no car there. Most drivers who do that, will usually only go slightly back but not completely. If they do, you might recall what happened at Spa between Hamilton and Kobayashi (I think 2011) when Hamilton overtook Kobayashi and then moved back to the racing line (while miscaluclating the top speed of the Sauber) and they collided. As far as I remember, Hamilton was even punished for that.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Even so, you're ignoring the obvious, and that is Verstappen's reactive driving. Dan pulls to the right, Max follows to the right (and opens the gap on the left). Dan pulls to the left, Verstappen pulls back to the left. However small those movements are, Dan reacted back to them and ultimately was committed to a move that no longer worked.

Verstappen was right, in the sense that he maintained the inside line, just like every driver does to protect being overtaken. Last year Hamilton did that in Spa and he could hold on to the position. Verstappen then used the rule of one move, went to the right and came back to the original position. That does not constitute "Weaving" and is perfectly legal. The rule is in place to avoid "excessive" weaving.

Imagine closing a car on a long straight and you are closing in quickly with a large speed differential. You move to the right and the car in front does so too. Meanwhile, the gap is closing rapidly. You then move to the left because that's where the gap is opening and the car in front mirrors that movement. What do you think will happen? What do you expect the car behind to do?

Go on breaks. As a racing driver, you should always be prepared to avoid a collision while you are coming from behind. Schumacher did something similar in 2012 and got penalised for driving into Bruno Senna.

[George-Jung]

Even so, you're ignoring the obvious, and that is Verstappen's reactive driving. Dan pulls to the right, Max follows to the right (and opens the gap on the left). Dan pulls to the left, Verstappen pulls back to the left. However small those movements are, Dan reacted back to them and ultimately was committed to a move that no longer worked.

EDIT: And no, it isn't legal. One move is allowed to stop this from happening, other wise you could pretty much use your car as a dynamic obstacle and prevent any overtake from happening (at the risk of provoking a dangerous accident).

Isn’t racing always ‘reactive driving’- at least when you’re attack/defending??

What you described is exactly what always happens when defending? You are allowed one move ánd back.. resulting in two moves in total.

Not quite. The one-defensive-move isn't to allow "blocking". Blocking is always going to be dangerous and is no way to defend. The one-defensive-move is to force drivers to commit to either defending the outside or the inside line into a corner. I.e. if you want to secure the inside line, you can but then you should need to stay there.

Verstappen never defended the normal racing line/ right side..

It was left - middle - left..

Max wanted Ricciardo on the right/ outside of the corner, Ricciardo just wanted to muscle himself through the left side- inside of the corner, which clearly failed.

[sosic2121]

As for the Ric/Ves crash - at least RedBull, like Mercedes, allow their drivers to race each other. Hey, Ferrari - how about that as an idea?

I was thinking to myself, how is Ferrari going to make Kimi give Seb the position back? The only thing that saved him was Perez nipping him for fourth making the switchback unsavory to the team.

And I was thinking about what happens when Bottas wins? Is he now going to be number one driver for Mercedes?
Thank lord Mercedes placed some explosive in his tire

[jz11]

you also don't seem to use common sense, because, based on what you wrote in the other topic, you clearly don't understand the nature of "1 defensive move" rule and situations it was made to prevent, situations just like the one discussed here

[George-Jung]

Have you never wondered why all the experienced drivers (with an awful lot of WDCs between them) have all said 'Weaving in the braking zone is really stupid, against the regs, and will lead to an accident sooner rather than later"? Have you never wondered why other people don't do this really obvious thing that stops people overtaking them?

Uhmm.. Vettel - Ricciardo - Mexico - 2016? And that was actually moving in the braking zone.

[Phil]

Verstappen was right, in the sense that he maintained the inside line, just like every driver does to protect being overtaken. Last year Hamilton did that in Spa and he could hold on to the position. Verstappen then used the rule of one move, went to the right and came back to the original position. That does not constitute "Weaving" and is perfectly legal.

I am not sure i agree mate. One move is one move. What you are referring to is “moving back to the racing line” which is tolerated at best as long as you are not crowding a car.

In the case of Max and we assume the move to the right was his one-defensive-move, moving back to the left would put him even further away from the racing line.

If Max’s one move was to the left, then to some degree would he be allowed to move back to the ‘racing line’ and give himself a better opportunity at making the corner (again, as long as it is not to the detriment of the other driver).

What you are suggesting (moving right than left) is dangerous and in any circumstance would provoke way more dangerous collisions.

Go on breaks. As a racing driver, you should always be prepared to avoid a collision while you are coming from behind.

You know that aint possible. Imagine being on the highway and you are doing 20kmh more than cars on the lane next to you. Then suddenly a car pulls in front of you 5-10 meters ahead. Is braking the magical solution too?

I’m sorry, but if there is a car coming fast from behind with a large speed differential, there’s only so much you can expect from him when moving directly into his path in a blocking manner. Simply putting the responsibility at the car behind for not braking is a weak argument if you did your move at the very last moment.

[TwanV]

There was even space left between Max and the wall, but Ricciardo didn’t not go there to avoid a crash- he couldn’t anymore- because he misjudged the situation.

is this some sort of a joke?

the ***head made a ****head move which resulted in 0 points for the team, he was slower all weekend, then passes Ric, and Ric as usual gives him room to avoid collision, then the ****head almost puts Ric into the wall on exit of this very same corner, miraculously avoiding any damage after a pretty hard contact, then some more hard defense, then, when finally Ric does get past him, he by sheer luck manages to regain the position because backmarkers haven't learned to let leaders pass, and then he basically causes this crash, and yet you somehow put blame on RIC?

I can only praise Ric for managing keeping it together so well, because his TEAMMATE ruined his and WHOLE TEAMS effort, well, because he is just what Hamilton called him.

Yes, first you do race your teammate, but you race him, not crash him because your ego is over inflated by the empty hype

keep it together mate.. remember RIC crashed into VES not the other way. when you are speeding at 340 kph with a +35 kph difference to the guy in front of you, your first priority is to make sure to not hit him in the back. RIC got greedy because he could never have braked as hard as VES being where he was.. His own comments confirm that. VES looked very clumsy too, he should have known that defence was way too harsh/desperate. Both drivers to blame.

[TwanV]

you also don't seem to use common sense, because, based on what you wrote in the other topic, you clearly don't understand the nature of "1 defensive move" rule and situations it was made to prevent, situations just like the one discussed here

Can you quote on that please, because it was one move under braking which is ok, and one move before that corner, which is also ok. In europe you are alowed to block on the straight, sorry that doesn't work for you.