Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

I wonder what 4 MJ/lap means (if it doesn't mean 4 MJ/lap)
and 300 kJ stored in ancillaries - does this mean the energy stored in the H rotation is limited to 300 kJ ?

maybe the diagram doesn't entirely match the written rules

Probably refers to the alternator.

[hurril]

How can this possibly still be a point of contention? We've had this talk since 2014 and _you_ were here then

[saviour stivala]

Again the bolded text above is right. But the tricky part is that the energy flows that are unlimited are mixed with the energy flows that are regulated before they are measured. It is possible that the process that disentangles them can be “gamed” just as the fuel flow rate was thought to be abused by storage mechanisms downstream of the flow rate sensor. The FIA regulated/policed those abuses.

You are still wrong about the 33 seconds. But this is the wrong thread for a general discussion on the details of energy flow.

FIA measurements/policing are taken at MGU-K output (power) and (time). I do not know if this is the right thread or not, but I stand with what I said re the 33.33 deployment time. also there is another post with more details to you which is still under consideration by moderator, or at least so I was told.

Seriously before you make more of a fool of yourself please stop.

http://thekneeslider.com/images/2013/12/2014-f1-ers.gif

This is a chart showing energy flows in the entire ERS system. As is clearly shown, there is an unlimited energy exchange allowed between the MGU-H and the MGU-K. The 4MJ limit is for energy between the ES and the MGU-K. If you don't believe me or pretty much every poster in here go and check the rules.

"seriously before you make more of a fool of yourself please stop" hey jester not so fast, the chart (energy flow) shows the flow as mandated. final flow point to ICE is the MGU-K (MAXIMUM 120KW). Why are certian answers to other posts not let through and or takes so long to moderarte?>

[Cannonballer]

How can this possibly still be a point of contention? We've had this talk since 2014 and _you_ were here then

Clearly he did not do his homework and read all 11,000+ posts in the Honda Power Unit thread where the topic has been beat to death.

My question is why now? Was Ferrari unable to generate sufficient extra energy until now? Is it that Ferrari not realize the "loophole" until now? Or is it that Ferrari have run out of options to beat Mercedes and have thus decided they need to creatively interpret, bend, or break (depending on your perspective) the rules?

[Big Tea]

How can this possibly still be a point of contention? We've had this talk since 2014 and _you_ were here then

Clearly he did not do his homework and read all 11,000+ posts in the Honda Power Unit thread where the topic has been beat to death.

My question is why now? Was Ferrari unable to generate sufficient extra energy until now? Is it that Ferrari not realize the "loophole" until now? Or is it that Ferrari have run out of options to beat Mercedes and have thus decided they need to creatively interpret, bend, or break (depending on your perspective) the rules?

Or only now someone has spoken about it outside Ferrari?

[godlameroso]

FIA measurements/policing are taken at MGU-K output (power) and (time). I do not know if this is the right thread or not, but I stand with what I said re the 33.33 deployment time. also there is another post with more details to you which is still under consideration by moderator, or at least so I was told.

Seriously before you make more of a fool of yourself please stop.

http://thekneeslider.com/images/2013/12/2014-f1-ers.gif

This is a chart showing energy flows in the entire ERS system. As is clearly shown, there is an unlimited energy exchange allowed between the MGU-H and the MGU-K. The 4MJ limit is for energy between the ES and the MGU-K. If you don't believe me or pretty much every poster in here go and check the rules.

"seriously before you make more of a fool of yourself please stop" hey jester not so fast, the chart (energy flow) shows the flow as mandated. final flow point to ICE is the MGU-K (MAXIMUM 120KW). Why are certian answers to other posts not let through and or takes so long to moderarte?>

You missed that engine ancillaries can be powered by and send power to the K as well.

[trinidefender]

FIA measurements/policing are taken at MGU-K output (power) and (time). I do not know if this is the right thread or not, but I stand with what I said re the 33.33 deployment time. also there is another post with more details to you which is still under consideration by moderator, or at least so I was told.

Seriously before you make more of a fool of yourself please stop.

http://thekneeslider.com/images/2013/12/2014-f1-ers.gif

This is a chart showing energy flows in the entire ERS system. As is clearly shown, there is an unlimited energy exchange allowed between the MGU-H and the MGU-K. The 4MJ limit is for energy between the ES and the MGU-K. If you don't believe me or pretty much every poster in here go and check the rules.

"seriously before you make more of a fool of yourself please stop" hey jester not so fast, the chart (energy flow) shows the flow as mandated. final flow point to ICE is the MGU-K (MAXIMUM 120KW). Why are certian answers to other posts not let through and or takes so long to moderarte?>

120kW is a power limit. Kilowatts is a unit of power.

4MJ is an energy limit. Mega Joules is a unit of energy. They are not the same thing.

At no time can the MGU-K produce more power than 120kW. At 120kW (of power), 4MJ (of energy) will last for 33.333 seconds.

The MGU-H can supply as much additional energy to the MGU-K as it can harvest. Therefore the 120kW power limit is not exceeded. What is different is that the MGU-K can be powered for more than 33.333 seconds because of the additional energy.

[henry]

MGU-K power is not measured directly at the MGU-K (and like for MGU-H). It is measured at the DC link input to the inverter rather than the motor phases themselves (or as mechanical power). This is also the reason why the fIA allow slightly greater than 120kW (to allow for converter inefficiency).

Does this mean that when driving the K from the H the H output is first rectified to D.C. before being combined with the output from the ES and passed to the motor drive inverter?

If the two D.C.currents are combined before measurement how are the two flows discriminated to allow the energy flow regulations to be monitored? Or are the regs wrong when they say there is ONE sensor to measure ALL the flow into the K?

[NL_Fer]

Die anybody ever made a rough schematic of the CE?

[dans79]

The definition of power is work divided by time
Power = work/time

watt = joule/second

MGU-K power limit is 120 kW = 120,000 W
ES to MGU-K energy limit is 4 MJ = 4,000,000 J

Therefore:
4000000 = 120000/S
S = 4000000/120000
S = 33.333 seconds

That's where the time limit comes from that the previous poster came from. However by allowing unlimited energy transfer between the MGU-H to the MGU-K then the MGU-K can work for much longer.

Let's say that the MGU-H can provide 60 kW to the MGU-K when operating in maximum continuous self sustaining mode that means that the ES can supply 60 kW to the MGU-K to make up 120 kW.

Using the same 4 MJ limit for the ES to the MGU-K.

Therefore:
60 kW = 60,000 W
4 MJ = 4,000,000 J

4000000 = 60000/S
S = 4000000/60000
S = 66.667 seconds

In conclusion, while the power that the MGU-K can provide to the rear wheels remains at 120 kW, the MGU-K can provide it for a much longer period of time.

With respect, but no duh! I don't know why you keep droning on about the the 33 seconds thing. I have never refereed to it, nor do i care about it. No team is deploying power in a nice constant flow like this, they are deploying it in a manner that smooths out and or boosts the overall power delivery curve, to yield the best lap time possible. That's why they have new maps every race.


re-read the article, and keep in mind this the quote below is translated to English.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... gp-monaco/

Much more complicated are suspicions that Ferrari could cheat in energy management. According to this, more than the permitted four megajoules of energy per round should be fed into the system from the battery. This is to be accomplished by bypassing the measuring sensor, manipulating the electrical resistance in the lines and two outputs from the battery. If that were the case, according to experts in the qualifying rounds, that would bring 20 hp more in the short term.

This would be a technical rule violation, though not something that the other teams would easily be able to pick up on, as it would be very hard to distinguish from an ice efficiency improvement.

more than the permitted four megajoules of energy per round should be fed into the system from the battery.

This would be a sporting and technical rule violation, but most likely impossible for an apposing team to pick up on. to know this would require some form of insider knowledge.

This is to be accomplished by bypassing the measuring sensor, manipulating the electrical resistance in the lines and two outputs from the battery.

To me This is the real story but poorly worded/translated.

If that were the case, according to experts in the qualifying rounds, that would bring 20 hp more in the short term.

The concept of a 20hp boost during qualifying, i.e. momentary 135 kW bursts of power from the MGU-K, or something that looks similar to it, is something the teams could probably see in gps data.


Edit:
What you keep referring to (MGU-H to MGU-K) is what Mercedes has been doing since the first race of 2104, and Ferrari most likely since the first race of 2015. This issue/concern/theory (pick a word) is about them doing something more, something that is against the rules.

[trinidefender]

The definition of power is work divided by time
Power = work/time

watt = joule/second

MGU-K power limit is 120 kW = 120,000 W
ES to MGU-K energy limit is 4 MJ = 4,000,000 J

Therefore:
4000000 = 120000/S
S = 4000000/120000
S = 33.333 seconds

That's where the time limit comes from that the previous poster came from. However by allowing unlimited energy transfer between the MGU-H to the MGU-K then the MGU-K can work for much longer.

Let's say that the MGU-H can provide 60 kW to the MGU-K when operating in maximum continuous self sustaining mode that means that the ES can supply 60 kW to the MGU-K to make up 120 kW.

Using the same 4 MJ limit for the ES to the MGU-K.

Therefore:
60 kW = 60,000 W
4 MJ = 4,000,000 J

4000000 = 60000/S
S = 4000000/60000
S = 66.667 seconds

In conclusion, while the power that the MGU-K can provide to the rear wheels remains at 120 kW, the MGU-K can provide it for a much longer period of time.

With respect, but no duh! I don't know why you keep droning on about the the 33 seconds thing. I have never refereed to it, nor do i care about it. No team is deploying power in a nice constant flow like this, they are deploying it in a manner that smooths out and or boosts the overall power delivery curve, to yield the best lap time possible. That's why they have new maps every race.


re-read the article, and keep in mind this the quote below is translated to English.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... gp-monaco/

Much more complicated are suspicions that Ferrari could cheat in energy management. According to this, more than the permitted four megajoules of energy per round should be fed into the system from the battery. This is to be accomplished by bypassing the measuring sensor, manipulating the electrical resistance in the lines and two outputs from the battery. If that were the case, according to experts in the qualifying rounds, that would bring 20 hp more in the short term.

This would be a technical rule violation, though not something that the other teams would easily be able to pick up on, as it would be very hard to distinguish from an ice efficiency improvement.

more than the permitted four megajoules of energy per round should be fed into the system from the battery.

This would be a sporting and technical rule violation, but most likely impossible for an apposing team to pick up on. to know this would require some form of insider knowledge.

This is to be accomplished by bypassing the measuring sensor, manipulating the electrical resistance in the lines and two outputs from the battery.

To me This is the real story but poorly worded/translated.

If that were the case, according to experts in the qualifying rounds, that would bring 20 hp more in the short term.

The concept of a 20hp boost during qualifying, i.e. momentary 135 kW bursts of power from the MGU-K, or something that looks similar to it, is something the teams could probably see in gps data.


Edit:
What you keep referring to (MGU-H to MGU-K) is what Mercedes has been doing since the first race of 2104, and Ferrari most likely since the first race of 2015. This issue/concern/theory (pick a word) is about them doing something more, something that is against the rules.

My original reply was in reference to this:

No matter one’s imagination stretches/twists-it/pushes-it, Max electric power contribution to the drivetrain (contribution to ICE power) permitted is 4mj for 33.33 seconds per lap. And please don’t contaminate this site with what those at SKY feeds their sheep like followers and that includes their side kick/advisor the number one speculator/conspirator MH.
People tend to believe conspiracy theories in order to be in the know/to have some access to hidden knowledge that can give them a sense of control. It is unbelievable that some go as far as to believe that the rule makers will police/measure what is permitted (electrical power) anywhere other than at the MGU-K which is the final point of electrical power flow to the drivetrain.

He said 4MJ for 33.33 seconds is the only contribution to the drivetrain that the MGU-K can make which is incorrect as that time can be extended with the MGU-H harvest.

Due to the fact that the MGU-K can be connected to the ES, the MGU-H and maybe some ancillary components there must be more than one measurement of electrical energy going to the MGU-K.

[NL_Fer]

Maybe we need to think more about how to trick the current measurement sensors. For example by changing the fase between current and voltage.

[saviour stivala]

Seriously before you make more of a fool of yourself please stop.

http://thekneeslider.com/images/2013/12/2014-f1-ers.gif

This is a chart showing energy flows in the entire ERS system. As is clearly shown, there is an unlimited energy exchange allowed between the MGU-H and the MGU-K. The 4MJ limit is for energy between the ES and the MGU-K. If you don't believe me or pretty much every poster in here go and check the rules.

"seriously before you make more of a fool of yourself please stop" hey jester not so fast, the chart (energy flow) shows the flow as mandated. final flow point to ICE is the MGU-K (MAXIMUM 120KW). Why are certian answers to other posts not let through and or takes so long to moderarte?>

You missed that engine ancillaries can be powered by and send power to the K as well.

No I did not miss that engine ancillaries can be powered by and send power to the "K" as well, that energy flow chart still shows that the "K" being the final output point to the ICE is still mandated at a maximum output of 120 kw.

[henry]

....

The concept of a 20hp boost during qualifying, i.e. momentary 135 kW bursts of power from the MGU-K, or something that looks similar to it, is something the teams could probably see in gps data.

....

A 20, or so, hp boost would be consistent with running the PU in electric supercharger mode. So rather than more power directly from the MGU-K they might make use of any extra energy available to run that extra ICE power mode a little longer at the beginning of straights where it does most good.

And yes, the teams are likely to monitor competitors’ power and energy use and notice any “anomalies”.

[saviour stivala]

You are confusing power and energy. Yes there is a limit of +/- 120kW for the MGU-K. That is power which has a hard limit (supposedly).

The limit of 4MJ is an energy limit and only applies between the ERS and the MGU-K.

Look up the difference between power and energy if you are still confused.

I'm not confusing them at all, in fact i'm quite familiar with them. However for this problem all anyone needs to know is J/s = W.

The definition of power is work divided by time
Power = work/time

watt = joule/second

MGU-K power limit is 120 kW = 120,000 W
ES to MGU-K energy limit is 4 MJ = 4,000,000 J

Therefore:
4000000 = 120000/S
S = 4000000/120000
S = 33.333 seconds

That's where the time limit comes from that the previous poster came from. However by allowing unlimited energy transfer between the MGU-H to the MGU-K then the MGU-K can work for much longer.

Let's say that the MGU-H can provide 60 kW to the MGU-K when operating in maximum continuous self sustaining mode that means that the ES can supply 60 kW to the MGU-K to make up 120 kW.

Using the same 4 MJ limit for the ES to the MGU-K.

Therefore:
60 kW = 60,000 W
4 MJ = 4,000,000 J

4000000 = 60000/S
S = 4000000/60000
S = 66.667 seconds

In conclusion, while the power that the MGU-K can provide to the rear wheels remains at 120 kW, the MGU-K can provide it for a much longer period of time.

The rules (max of 4mj for 33.33 seconds per lap). The best teams are able to deploy for the whole lap senza lifting and braking points. examples:_4mj for 33.33 seconds per lap. 2mj for 66.66 seconds per lap 1mj for 133.32 seconds per lap and any such combination of power and time within the allowed maximum.