Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[dans79]

Maybe we need to think more about how to trick the current measurement sensors. For example by changing the fase between current and voltage.

Personally, I think we need to find out more about how the FIA sensors work, and how some of the systems teams are using work. Imo, most of the hybrid related rules are very vague.

[Tommy Cookers]

4 MJ of electrical energy from the ES gives 120 kW for 31.67 seconds if the efficiency is 95%

33.33 seconds at 120 kW would need 100% efficiency

[saviour stivala]

4 MJ of electrical energy from the ES gives 120 kW for 31.67 seconds if the efficiency is 95%

33.33 seconds at 120 kW would need 100% efficiency

You are of course correct and to the decemal point at that.

[godlameroso]

"seriously before you make more of a fool of yourself please stop" hey jester not so fast, the chart (energy flow) shows the flow as mandated. final flow point to ICE is the MGU-K (MAXIMUM 120KW). Why are certian answers to other posts not let through and or takes so long to moderarte?>

You missed that engine ancillaries can be powered by and send power to the K as well.

No I did not miss that engine ancillaries can be powered by and send power to the "K" as well, that energy flow chart still shows that the "K" being the final output point to the ICE is still mandated at a maximum output of 120 kw.

Ok, I never said it isn't.

[saviour stivala]

You missed that engine ancillaries can be powered by and send power to the K as well.

No I did not miss that engine ancillaries can be powered by and send power to the "K" as well, that energy flow chart still shows that the "K" being the final output point to the ICE is still mandated at a maximum output of 120 kw.

Ok, I never said it isn't.

So why brings in something else that can only add to the confusion of certain minds.

[godlameroso]

No I did not miss that engine ancillaries can be powered by and send power to the "K" as well, that energy flow chart still shows that the "K" being the final output point to the ICE is still mandated at a maximum output of 120 kw.

Ok, I never said it isn't.

So why brings in something else that can only add to the confusion of certain minds.

Not my job to erase confusion but to see the bigger picture. There are ways to transfer more energy than 4MJ to the K, whether it's practical or achievable is another matter.

[McHonda]

I'm not confusing them at all, in fact i'm quite familiar with them. However for this problem all anyone needs to know is J/s = W.

The definition of power is work divided by time
Power = work/time

watt = joule/second

MGU-K power limit is 120 kW = 120,000 W
ES to MGU-K energy limit is 4 MJ = 4,000,000 J

Therefore:
4000000 = 120000/S
S = 4000000/120000
S = 33.333 seconds

That's where the time limit comes from that the previous poster came from. However by allowing unlimited energy transfer between the MGU-H to the MGU-K then the MGU-K can work for much longer.

Let's say that the MGU-H can provide 60 kW to the MGU-K when operating in maximum continuous self sustaining mode that means that the ES can supply 60 kW to the MGU-K to make up 120 kW.

Using the same 4 MJ limit for the ES to the MGU-K.

Therefore:
60 kW = 60,000 W
4 MJ = 4,000,000 J

4000000 = 60000/S
S = 4000000/60000
S = 66.667 seconds

In conclusion, while the power that the MGU-K can provide to the rear wheels remains at 120 kW, the MGU-K can provide it for a much longer period of time.

The rules (max of 4mj for 33.33 seconds per lap). The best teams are able to deploy for the whole lap senza lifting and braking points. examples:_4mj for 33.33 seconds per lap. 2mj for 66.66 seconds per lap 1mj for 133.32 seconds per lap and any such combination of power and time within the allowed maximum.

From ES to the K.

You're still ignoring the unlimited paths between ES and H and back and H and K and back. Unlimited in terms of energy transfer.

As long as when you then put it through the K it doesn't exceed 120kw of power you can have as many MJ as you can muster going through the K.

[saviour stivala]

The definition of power is work divided by time
Power = work/time

watt = joule/second

MGU-K power limit is 120 kW = 120,000 W
ES to MGU-K energy limit is 4 MJ = 4,000,000 J

Therefore:
4000000 = 120000/S
S = 4000000/120000
S = 33.333 seconds

That's where the time limit comes from that the previous poster came from. However by allowing unlimited energy transfer between the MGU-H to the MGU-K then the MGU-K can work for much longer.

Let's say that the MGU-H can provide 60 kW to the MGU-K when operating in maximum continuous self sustaining mode that means that the ES can supply 60 kW to the MGU-K to make up 120 kW.

Using the same 4 MJ limit for the ES to the MGU-K.

Therefore:
60 kW = 60,000 W
4 MJ = 4,000,000 J

4000000 = 60000/S
S = 4000000/60000
S = 66.667 seconds

In conclusion, while the power that the MGU-K can provide to the rear wheels remains at 120 kW, the MGU-K can provide it for a much longer period of time.

The rules (max of 4mj for 33.33 seconds per lap). The best teams are able to deploy for the whole lap senza lifting and braking points. examples:_4mj for 33.33 seconds per lap. 2mj for 66.66 seconds per lap 1mj for 133.32 seconds per lap and any such combination of power and time within the allowed maximum.

From ES to the K.

You're still ignoring the unlimited paths between ES and H and back and H and K and back. Unlimited in terms of energy transfer.

As long as when you then put it through the K it doesn't exceed 120kw of power you can have as many MJ as you can muster going through the K.

Exactly, you can put whatever you like as long as it goes through the "K" and it doesn't exceed 120kw of power.

[zibby43]

Mercedes asking for clarification on oil burning . . .

And as a result . . . another oil burning "loophole" closed re: the turbocharger.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... e-1040317/

In essence, Mercedes has pinpointed a potential loophole in the wording which could see the turbo considered separately from the ICE, or V6.

The original letter was sent to the FIA's Charlie Whiting by Chris Jilbert, the Head of Product Engineering Capability at Mercedes HPP in Brixworth.

In it, he asked: "With the exception of transformer oils used within ERS cooling circuits, and hydraulic oils used for PU actuators (both of which should have zero consumption in operation), do all oils (and specifically, any oil used in the pressure charging [turbocharger] system) used in the Power Unit need to comply with Article 20?"

Whiting's reply was that "All oils used in the engine must comply with Article 20 of the F1 Technical Regulations. The turbocharger is considered part of the engine."

Jilbert's second question was: "If the answer to Q1 is 'yes', does it therefore follow that the combined oil consumption of all the Power Unit oils must respect the 0.6lts/100km limit referenced within TD/012-17?", referring to previous Technical Directives about oil consumption.

Whiting replied with a "Yes."

[McHonda]

The rules (max of 4mj for 33.33 seconds per lap). The best teams are able to deploy for the whole lap senza lifting and braking points. examples:_4mj for 33.33 seconds per lap. 2mj for 66.66 seconds per lap 1mj for 133.32 seconds per lap and any such combination of power and time within the allowed maximum.

From ES to the K.

You're still ignoring the unlimited paths between ES and H and back and H and K and back. Unlimited in terms of energy transfer.

As long as when you then put it through the K it doesn't exceed 120kw of power you can have as many MJ as you can muster going through the K.

Exactly, you can put whatever you like as long as it goes through the "K" and it doesn't exceed 120kw of power.

So why are you mentioning 33s for? They can have 120kw going through the K for longer if they had the sufficient recuperation to do so.

As long as the power going through the K never exceeds 120kw then the amount of energy you can deploy is potentially unlimited because of the unlimited K>H>ES>H>K pathway.

[imightbewrong]

As long as the power going through the K never exceeds 120kw then the amount of energy you can deploy is potentially unlimited because of the unlimited K>H>ES>H>K pathway.

Just a quick question to catch up. How do you transfer the energy in the K>H>ES path?
I mean, it can't be simply through electrical connections directly can it? I assume that this would be seen as simply K>ES (albeit through different connection terminals).
If you want to do that I assume that you would actually have to:

1. transfer energy from K to H, thus spinning the H up faster and storing the momentum in the H
2. transfer energy from H to ES by loading the H from the ES side, thus converting the momentum to electricity
3. repeat process

Is this correct?
I'm guessing the H would then need to have a flywheel (or a chunky rotor) to store any meaningful momentum..

[F1NAC]

Mercedes asking for clarification on oil burning . . .

And as a result . . . another oil burning "loophole" closed re: the turbocharger.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... e-1040317/

In essence, Mercedes has pinpointed a potential loophole in the wording which could see the turbo considered separately from the ICE, or V6.

The original letter was sent to the FIA's Charlie Whiting by Chris Jilbert, the Head of Product Engineering Capability at Mercedes HPP in Brixworth.

In it, he asked: "With the exception of transformer oils used within ERS cooling circuits, and hydraulic oils used for PU actuators (both of which should have zero consumption in operation), do all oils (and specifically, any oil used in the pressure charging [turbocharger] system) used in the Power Unit need to comply with Article 20?"

Whiting's reply was that "All oils used in the engine must comply with Article 20 of the F1 Technical Regulations. The turbocharger is considered part of the engine."

Jilbert's second question was: "If the answer to Q1 is 'yes', does it therefore follow that the combined oil consumption of all the Power Unit oils must respect the 0.6lts/100km limit referenced within TD/012-17?", referring to previous Technical Directives about oil consumption.

Whiting replied with a "Yes."

Didn't AMuS reported that FIA inspected that and everything was fine?

[Tommy Cookers]

@ imightbewrong

Honda are doing this 'extra harvest' and we've seen the telemetry
some posters made calculations
it's in the Honda thread
there's quite a lot of energy in the rotation at 100000 rpm

just remember this rotation stores energy but isn't an Energy Store because the FIA pretends it isn't
just remember that fuel is burnt to produce directly electrical energy that the FIA pretends is recovered waste energy

[RZS10]

I think they checked the battery ...

Is it even possible to revert to a single oil circuit if one had a seperate one for the turbo without changing the engine?

[imightbewrong]

@ imightbewrong

Honda are doing this 'extra harvest' and we've seen the telemetry
some posters made calculations
it's in the Honda thread

there's quite a lot of energy in the rotation at 125000 rpm

Awesome, thanks!