2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

[GrandAxe]

It would be great for fans of certain drivers to take this advice as well.
Lewis Hamilton: 'Media need to show Sebastian Vettel more respect'

... If he got in that position but didn't try there would be people complaining he doesn't have any fighting spirit, if he made it stick it would have gone down as one of the moves of the year.

Vettel could be described as being optimistic to try that move in that corner against that opponent - however many overtakes were completed there in this years race without contact (many by Vettel) so the uncommon denominator is Verstappen - and you could say he could have left more room, but there's so many 'coulds' in there that the right decision was made in describing it as a racing incident with no majority of blame for either driver...

... But Vettel dive-bombed. This is at the crux of the matter.
Dive-bombing is against F1 rules, so he was very lucky to go unpunished.

It is not against the rules?

Dive-bombing is against the rules indeed.

[WaikeCU]

No, but the reason I think it’s not the place to overtake is:

- if you are on the racing line at entry of the corner (Max), then that’s the grippier, faster line and with the speed you take Spoon, it’s not a plausible place to overtake on the inside, which is not the racing line.
- The only way I believe you are able to overtake going into Spoon is if the car in front (Max) decides to protect the inside line (not the racing line) and Vettel decides to take the racing line and overtake him on Max’ outside, because of having the upper hand on speed on entrance with the grippier, faster racing line he’s on.

[GrandAxe]

It would be great for fans of certain drivers to take this advice as well.
Lewis Hamilton: 'Media need to show Sebastian Vettel more respect'

... If he got in that position but didn't try there would be people complaining he doesn't have any fighting spirit, if he made it stick it would have gone down as one of the moves of the year.

Vettel could be described as being optimistic to try that move in that corner against that opponent - however many overtakes were completed there in this years race without contact (many by Vettel) so the uncommon denominator is Verstappen - and you could say he could have left more room, but there's so many 'coulds' in there that the right decision was made in describing it as a racing incident with no majority of blame for either driver...

... But Vettel dive-bombed. This is at the crux of the matter.
Dive-bombing is against F1 rules, so he was very lucky to go unpunished.

I disagree. He did not divebomb him. Diving into someone's inside is not the same as divebombing.

No, that is the exact definition of dive-bombing. It is suddenly appearing at the apex of a corner from behind and at great speed; instead of having moved into position (relative to the car being attacked) outside of the corner in order to have reasonable claim to the racing line.

[NathanOlder]

... But Vettel dive-bombed. This is at the crux of the matter.
Dive-bombing is against F1 rules, so he was very lucky to go unpunished.

I disagree. He did not divebomb him. Diving into someone's inside is not the same as divebombing.

No, that is the exact definition of dive-bombing. It is suddenly appearing at the apex of a corner from behind and at great speed; instead of having moved into position (relative to the car being attacked) outside of the corner in order to have reasonable claim to the racing line.

But when does it become great speed ? You have to be going faster at some point to overtake so when does it become great speed

[turbof1]

... But Vettel dive-bombed. This is at the crux of the matter.
Dive-bombing is against F1 rules, so he was very lucky to go unpunished.

I disagree. He did not divebomb him. Diving into someone's inside is not the same as divebombing.

No, that is the exact definition of dive-bombing. It is suddenly appearing at the apex of a corner from behind and at great speed; instead of having moved into position (relative to the car being attacked) outside of the corner in order to have reasonable claim to the racing line.

Doesn't make any sense. You basically labelled every overtaking attempt in racing from the inside as a divebomb. He initiated the overtaking attempt before the corner and was significantly alongside Verstappen at the same speed as Verstappen. Please don't confuse your emotions for facts on this.

No, but the reason I think it’s not the place to overtake is:

- if you are on the racing line at entry of the corner (Max), then that’s the grippier, faster line and with the speed you take Spoon, it’s not a plausible place to overtake on the inside, which is not the racing line.
- The only way I believe you are able to overtake going into Spoon is if the car in front (Max) decides to protect the inside line (not the racing line) and Vettel decides to take the racing line and overtake him on Max’ outside, because of having the upper hand on speed on entrance with the grippier, faster racing line he’s on.

Both were off the racing at different intervals. Vettel was on the racing line at the apex, Verstappen was on the racing line on turn on. Both had their racing line compromised. I think Verstappen would eventually be back on the racing line and would have accelerated away, but the disruption that took away his racing line on the apex can often be enough to keep the overtaking manoeuvre going and compromise your opponent for the next corner/apex and any following straights. Not to mention if Vettel was ahead, Vettel could have claimed the racing line exiting the apex. Then Verstappen would definitely have been compromised on exit.

Even then, not every overtake attempt has to be succesful to be valid.

[MtthsMlw]

[GrandAxe]

I disagree. He did not divebomb him. Diving into someone's inside is not the same as divebombing.

No, that is the exact definition of dive-bombing. It is suddenly appearing at the apex of a corner from behind and at great speed; instead of having moved into position (relative to the car being attacked) outside of the corner in order to have reasonable claim to the racing line.

But when does it become great speed ? You have to be going faster at some point to overtake so when does it become great speed

Its when the attacking car carries such speed that they cannot go through the corner without either crashing into their quarry or going off track.

[NathanOlder]

So what happens when the car on the outside doesnt give the car on the inside enough room ?

[GrandAxe]

I disagree. He did not divebomb him. Diving into someone's inside is not the same as divebombing.

No, that is the exact definition of dive-bombing. It is suddenly appearing at the apex of a corner from behind and at great speed; instead of having moved into position (relative to the car being attacked) outside of the corner in order to have reasonable claim to the racing line.

Doesn't make any sense. You basically labelled every overtaking attempt in racing from the inside as a divebomb. He initiated the overtaking attempt before the corner and was significantly alongside Verstappen at the same speed as Verstappen. Please don't confuse your emotions for facts on this.

What emotions? Don't patronise me please.

This is my definition of a dive-bomb (as posted above):

Its when the attacking car carries such speed that they cannot go through the corner without either crashing into their quarry or going off track.

Lets see your own definition of dive-bombing.

[turbof1]

No, that is the exact definition of dive-bombing. It is suddenly appearing at the apex of a corner from behind and at great speed; instead of having moved into position (relative to the car being attacked) outside of the corner in order to have reasonable claim to the racing line.

But when does it become great speed ? You have to be going faster at some point to overtake so when does it become great speed

Its when the attacking car carries such speed that they cannot go through the corner without either crashing into their quarry or going off track.

Again, he was able to slow down to the same speed as Verstappen. He was going to able to navigate the corner, but was squeezed heavily on the inside. There was no excessive speed involved. My definition of a dive bomb is the 2016 spanish gp Ricciardo vs Vettel. Ricciardo carried so much speed he ended up off the track on the outside of the corner. If you are not in a position anymore to navigate the corner and will end up off the track due that excessive speed, you are dive bombing. Ricciardo 2016 was a clear example, Hamilton 2007 Monza was right on the edge of that. Vettel making contact with Verstappen on the very inside of the corner is not a dive bomb.

Btw, this is how you defend from a divebomb or close to a divebomb: https://youtu.be/PJvlNqKi1Uk?t=50
Early apex, let the opponent go weide and dive underneath. Verstappen choose to defend instead, which indicates he also felt Vettel being able to slow down enough.

[GrandAxe]

So what happens when the car on the outside doesnt give the car on the inside enough room ?

That's a whole different ball game to the attacking driver carrying too much speed. Two very separate things.

[NathanOlder]

Have to say I'm with Turbo on this one. Everyone probably knows I'm the opposite of a Vettel fan, and I think he had a chance , he went for it, and it was Max that caused the spin. Its certainly not a divebomb in my opinion.

Its not a common overtaking spot, but Seb had full power and Max appeared to be harvesting so was a sitting duck.

[GrandAxe]

But when does it become great speed ? You have to be going faster at some point to overtake so when does it become great speed

Its when the attacking car carries such speed that they cannot go through the corner without either crashing into their quarry or going off track.

Again, he was able to slow down to the same speed as Verstappen. He was going to able to navigate the corner, but was squeezed heavily on the inside. There was no excessive speed involved.

He surely wouldn't have crashed into Max's front wheel if he was travelling slower (or at the same speed); in fact Vettel couldn't have been trying to overtake Max by slowing to the same speed as Max, since that is impossible.
I'm assuming by "speed", you are talking about angular velocity, if not it makes matters even worse.

I'm still interested in your definition of a dive-bomb.

[turbof1]

Its when the attacking car carries such speed that they cannot go through the corner without either crashing into their quarry or going off track.

Again, he was able to slow down to the same speed as Verstappen. He was going to able to navigate the corner, but was squeezed heavily on the inside. There was no excessive speed involved.

He surely wouldn't have crashed into Max's front wheel if he was travelling slower (or at the same speed); in fact Vettel couldn't have been trying to overtake Max by slowing to the same speed as Max, since that is impossible.
I'm assuming by "speed", you are talking about angular velocity, if not it makes matters even worse.

I'm still interested in your definition of a dive-bomb.

Or maybe Max crashed into Vettel? It takes 2 to collide, and Verstappen was the only person able to control the space between him and the edge of the track. (Not that I am blaming Verstappen; I think he stayed just within the limits of what is allowed to).

Also, he sure would not have crashed into Verstappen if he did not race at all and was just enjoying the race from his home in Germany. Or if Verstappen had a bank job instead of racing. Those are semantics; a crash happening is not always the culmination of one person's actions. Vettel drew significantly alongside and ended up the same speed because Vettel was braking a whole lot more than Verstappen, who was on the outside. You know that, I know that, it is not rocket science.

My definition is in my previous post. I think I was quite specific on that, so you'll enjoy that .

[GrandAxe]

Have to say I'm with Turbo on this one. Everyone probably knows I'm the opposite of a Vettel fan, and I think he had a chance , he went for it, and it was Max that caused the spin. Its certainly not a divebomb in my opinion.

Its not a common overtaking spot, but Seb had full power and Max appeared to be harvesting so was a sitting duck.

By the accepted definition of a dive-bomb, it was one. The problem is that that mode of overtaking has been almost legitimised by Ricciardo's antics which have been let go (so far), perhaps because engine power deficit makes the underdog and the "show" must go on.

Yes, Max was harvesting, but it doesn't mean he should give up the racing line (having got there first).