2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

[NathanOlder]

But Vettel was on the racing line when they touched was he not ? At racing speed (not any faster)

[turbof1]

Yes, Max was harvesting, but it doesn't mean he should give up the racing line (having got there first).

But it also doesn't mean Vettel is not allowed to attack it. It's generally accepted you have to leave some space between you and the track edge if an opponent get significantly alongside. I think NathanOlder feels Max went too far on that; I personally think Verstappen cut it right to the edge of what is allowed, but that doesn't make Vettel's attempt any less valid. Vettel was alongside and therefore is allowed to determine his speed within reason and within the confines of the space Verstappen allowed. However, Verstappen did cut it really right on the edge of what is allowed. I can't blame Vettel for what is actually a light touch with bigger consequences. While I don't agree Max pushed it too far to be blamed, I don't blame Vettel either for not being able to navigate such a tight squeeze without light contact. I think few would have been able to get out of the situation without that contact. The amount of contact however was quite light, which is a good indication that speeds were reasonable. The issue afterwards was that both their wheels straightened due the contact and the big wheels at the rear coming into contact with eachother because of that, basically cascading a small tab into a spin and some floor damage.

[GrandAxe]

But when does it become great speed ? You have to be going faster at some point to overtake so when does it become great speed

Its when the attacking car carries such speed that they cannot go through the corner without either crashing into their quarry or going off track.

Again, he was able to slow down to the same speed as Verstappen. He was going to able to navigate the corner, but was squeezed heavily on the inside. There was no excessive speed involved. My definition of a dive bomb is the 2016 spanish gp Ricciardo vs Vettel. Ricciardo carried so much speed he ended up off the track on the outside of the corner. If you are not in a position anymore to navigate the corner and will end up off the track due that excessive speed, you are dive bombing. Ricciardo 2016 was a clear example, Hamilton 2007 Monza was right on the edge of that. Vettel making contact with Verstappen on the very inside of the corner is not a dive bomb.

Btw, this is how you defend from a divebomb or close to a divebomb: https://youtu.be/PJvlNqKi1Uk?t=50
Early apex, let the opponent go weide and dive underneath. Verstappen choose to defend instead, which indicates he also felt Vettel being able to slow down enough.

Unfortunately, neither Max nor Vettel have much in lieu of race craft, therefore proper methods of defending against a dive-bomb will unlikely occur to either. So, they crashed.

If a dive-bomb must take you off the track where you would not only stand the risk of losing several places, but also face damage, then it would not be a punishable offence under racing rules. Going off track is not an offence (except it gains the driver speed). What you have described is cutting the corner. Dive-bombing on the other hand, endangers two (or more) drivers.

[GrandAxe]

Yes, Max was harvesting, but it doesn't mean he should give up the racing line (having got there first).

But it also doesn't mean Vettel is not allowed to attack it. It's generally accepted you have to leave some space between you and the track edge if an opponent get significantly alongside. I think TAG feels Max went too far on that; I personally think Verstappen cut it right to the edge of what is allowed, but that doesn't make Vettel's attempt any less valid.

Yes, Max might have left more room. However, he did absolutely nothing wrong as he got to the apex first and Vettel got there very late. If Vettel had executed the maneuver correctly, he would have been reliant on the rules to validate him, rather than on Max's goodwill to give him room.
Indeed, Max's subsequent actions were within the rules, but nevertheless led to a crash in which Vettel lost out.

The way Vettel could have performed the overtake correctly would have been to have his front wheel at least level to Max's rear wheel before corner entry, instead of diving in from so far behind.

[Phil]

But it also doesn't mean Vettel is not allowed to attack it. It's generally accepted you have to leave some space between you and the track edge if an opponent get significantly alongside.

Yes and no. Yes, you need to leave room, but there's a difference between where the moment of contact takes place. Does it take place at

A.) at corner entry in the braking zone
B.) Apex
C.) at corner exit on acceleration

These are very important factors. When you are committed to a corner at a certain speed and trajectory, you are to some degree a by passenger. You can't turn in more, because you are already at the limit of grip. Maybe you can't release your steering lock because the momentum and trajectory you have, will then cover you out of the corner. Depending on what lies beyond the track, this can be dangerous and potentially race ending. Slowing down / braking is perhaps also not possible. Decelerate at that point and you alter the balance of the car. Weight might shift to the front and your car will then oversteer to the point you might lose it.

I fully expect a racing driver racing on a particular track to know the challenges of what their opponents are facing. The above physics pretty much always put a car on the outside (apex and beyond) at a disadvantage. The car on the inside is to some degree committed to a certain line with fewer possibilities. Contrary, at corner entry, other rules apply. On the brakes, you are also pretty much a by-passenger to the trajectory you are on. With the weight shifting to the fronts, you can't simply start changing your trajectory. The car will understeer with oversteering following.

The issue with Vettel's move is that he attempted a pass in a place where the chances of success were slim to begin with. Max's line into spoon wasn't extraordinary. He was on pretty much the normal racing line into the corner. E.g. he knew he was aiming for a gap that was going to close. Max didn't jinx, he didn't dart to the apex. He moved there entirely predictable.

I think most of us arguing against Vettel is that he moved into a spot that was closing. If he had gotten fully alongside, perhaps even slightly ahead of Max before that space ran out - fair game. But he didn't. He didn't make it. He tried and failed. This demonstrated quite irrefutably that the move wasn't going to cut it. Just because someone from behind decides it's smart racing to stick the nose into a closing gap doesn't automatically mean it's the responsibility of the guy in front to "leave space" and give up his position. That's not the way it works. If it were, one could suggest that waving people through is on. It isn't. It's racing. And to some part, the onus is on the driver overtaking, not the other way around.

Some corners are better suited for overtakes. Some aren't. Spoon is extremely challenging because of the speed and how the racing line goes through the corner, meaning that any gap that is there, is always likely to close. If a move is on or not, depends on if the person you are racing is extremely forthcoming and pretty much waves you through or is prepared to stick to the line. It also depends if the driver even sees you in time to react and to what degree he is already committed to the corner. It also depends on the speed difference between the cars. I think Vettel overtook Grosjean a lap or two earlier into spoon which worked, but that was an entirely different car of a different caliber. It probably lured him into believing he could make it stick against Max too. In the end, he didn't get fully alongside or ahead and was a miscalculation.

And judging by the radio at the very end where Vettel says something to the team along the lines of "there was a gap there and if he didn't go for it, he might as well stay home" or to that effect, makes me rather believe he knew too that it was just a bit too ambitious.

[Wynters]

So what happens when the car on the outside doesnt give the car on the inside enough room ?

That's a whole different ball game to the attacking driver carrying too much speed. Two very separate things.

In this case, it's very easy to see that Max did not give Vettel a car's width. Vettel was already off track, even with their wheels were interlocked.

The way Vettel could have performed the overtake correctly would have been to have his front wheel at least level to Max's rear wheel before corner entry, instead of diving in from so far behind.

Vettel already has his front wing alongside as they are passing the last braking board. I don't see how you can call this a 'dive bomb' and not invalidate every pass made involving taking the inside line into a corner.

It's worth noting that even Verstappen doesn't call it a 'Dive bomb', instead he asks what Vettel was thinking trying to overtake there. Also, despite the initial contact coming from Vettel's right front moving into Verstappen's left front, it's a light contact. It's not until Verstappen's left rear moves into, and heavily hits, Vettel's right front that there is heavy contact. This indicates that Verstappen was travelling significantly faster than Vettel at that point. If you are worried about 'going too fast to make the corner' then, by the time of the second impact, Verstappen is the one most at risk of that. Personally, I think it's obvious both would've made the corner comfortably if there had been no impact.

[Wynters]

The issue with Vettel's move is that he attempted a pass in a place where the chances of success were slim to begin with. Max's line into spoon wasn't extraordinary. He was on pretty much the normal racing line into the corner. E.g. he knew he was aiming for a gap that was going to close. Max didn't jinx, he didn't dart to the apex. He moved there entirely predictable.

I think most of us arguing against Vettel is that he moved into a spot that was closing. If he had gotten fully alongside, perhaps even slightly ahead of Max before that space ran out - fair game. But he didn't. He didn't make it. He tried and failed. This demonstrated quite irrefutably that the move wasn't going to cut it. Just because someone from behind decides it's smart racing to stick the nose into a closing gap doesn't automatically mean it's the responsibility of the guy in front to "leave space" and give up his position. That's not the way it works. If it were, one could suggest that waving people through is on. It isn't. It's racing. And to some part, the onus is on the driver overtaking, not the other way around.

It was definitely risky, but let's not kid ourselves that driving up the inside (or outside) of another car and having that car push us off track is always the fault of the overtaker. The normal racing line generally involves using the limits of the track, often at entry, apex and exit. If we're saying that putting enough of your car alongside someone that your front wheel is right behind his is not 'far enough alongside' then how do you suggest you overtake someone? If you try up the inside, I'll squeeze you off the track at the apex. If you try the outside, I'll block you at corner entry and then push you off at corner exit. If we touch, it will prove that your move 'wasn't going to make it' and thus it's on you.

Let's look at Kimi and Max as an example. Max simply regained the normal racing line on the exit of the corner. Poor Kimi was 'a day late and a dollar short' once Max decided to rejoin and "This demonstrated quite irrefutably that [Kimi's] move wasn't going to cut it".

[ThumbsUp]

It surprises me that no one mentioned yet that the line Vettel is taking he would never make the exit of the corner with the amount of speed he caries through the corner.

If you play this vid in slomotion, you can see other cars in the distance all being on the right hand side of the track to make the corner properly. Vettel would be on the outside of the track.



In hindsight, if he would go round the outside he could have made it stick with the amount of speed he carries through.

[Wynters]

It surprises me that no one mentioned yet that the line Vettel is taking he would never make the exit of the corner with the amount of speed he caries through the corner.

Windsor commented that Vettel normally took a tighter line through here than Max and Lewis. Also, even assuming Vettel was carrying more speed (and he was barely travelling faster than Verstappen at the point of initial impact, as the lightness of the hit will attest, cars can brake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N3SItwAvKU

Watch this on the highest slow-mo from 22 seconds to 24 seconds. Vettel is not travelling significantly faster than Max

[LM10]

But it also doesn't mean Vettel is not allowed to attack it. It's generally accepted you have to leave some space between you and the track edge if an opponent get significantly alongside.

The issue with Vettel's move is that he attempted a pass in a place where the chances of success were slim to begin with. Max's line into spoon wasn't extraordinary. He was on pretty much the normal racing line into the corner. E.g. he knew he was aiming for a gap that was going to close. Max didn't jinx, he didn't dart to the apex. He moved there entirely predictable.

I think most of us arguing against Vettel is that he moved into a spot that was closing. If he had gotten fully alongside, perhaps even slightly ahead of Max before that space ran out - fair game. But he didn't. He didn't make it. He tried and failed. This demonstrated quite irrefutably that the move wasn't going to cut it. Just because someone from behind decides it's smart racing to stick the nose into a closing gap doesn't automatically mean it's the responsibility of the guy in front to "leave space" and give up his position. That's not the way it works. If it were, one could suggest that waving people through is on. It isn't. It's racing. And to some part, the onus is on the driver overtaking, not the other way around.

Some corners are better suited for overtakes. Some aren't. Spoon is extremely challenging because of the speed and how the racing line goes through the corner, meaning that any gap that is there, is always likely to close. If a move is on or not, depends on if the person you are racing is extremely forthcoming and pretty much waves you through or is prepared to stick to the line. It also depends if the driver even sees you in time to react and to what degree he is already committed to the corner. It also depends on the speed difference between the cars. I think Vettel overtook Grosjean a lap or two earlier into spoon which worked, but that was an entirely different car of a different caliber. It probably lured him into believing he could make it stick against Max too. In the end, he didn't get fully alongside or ahead and was a miscalculation.

And judging by the radio at the very end where Vettel says something to the team along the lines of "there was a gap there and if he didn't go for it, he might as well stay home" or to that effect, makes me rather believe he knew too that it was just a bit too ambitious.

I don't know why you keep on telling that Spoon is not a spot to overtake. Like turbof1 told, every place is a potential overtaking possibility.

And I don't understand what you mean with the need of Vettel to be alongside or even ahead. Nonetheless, if you watch it, you can see that he is alongside Verstappen anyway and that's way before they turn in. Max surely saw Vettel, but chose not to give him enough space. Of course he can stay on the racing line, but this argument applies to almost every overtake and by this argument overtakes can just be done on long straights.
Gaps are always going to close, logically. Then it depends on the other driver to keep on closing it, despite being aware of the driver next to him.

I very well think that Vettel would have managed to finish the overtake, if Verstappen had given him just a bit more space, or in other words, enough space for a car's width. Until they touched Vettel looked like he was in control of it and it also doesn't seem that he had any significant understeer.

[ThumbsUp]

It surprises me that no one mentioned yet that the line Vettel is taking he would never make the exit of the corner with the amount of speed he caries through the corner.

Windsor commented that Vettel normally took a tighter line through here than Max and Lewis. Also, even assuming Vettel was carrying more speed (and he was barely travelling faster than Verstappen at the point of initial impact, as the lightness of the hit will attest, cars can brake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N3SItwAvKU

Watch this on the highest slow-mo from 22 seconds to 24 seconds. Vettel is not travelling significantly faster than Max

Well pretty obvious that he brakes at the moment he know's he's gonna crash.. thats why he was barely traveling faster as you say.

This is a big if, but if he had the space and no collission he would have had way to much speed to make the corner properly.

And it wasn't a light touch! He hits the front left of Max's car and destroyed the floor and then hits the left rear of Max's car, which makes Max's car jump.

Anyway I'm fine with racing incident, but I do think that Vettel is the one who could avoid a collision more then Max.

[Phil]

It was definitely risky, but let's not kid ourselves that driving up the inside (or outside) of another car and having that car push us off track is always the fault of the overtaker. The normal racing line generally involves using the limits of the track, often at entry, apex and exit. If we're saying that putting enough of your car alongside someone that your front wheel is right behind his is not 'far enough alongside' then how do you suggest you overtake someone?

Because, obviously, there are certain limits to what a defending driver can or can't do. On a straight you have the '1 defensive-move'. You either block the inside and force a driver attacking your position onto the outside, or you defend the outside. Either way, swerving is not allowed, neither are blocking moves, e.g. reacting to what a driver is doing behind you. This is usually the etiquette on straights. Obviously going into corners, there's the racing line to take into account.

I hate to state the obvious, but drivers have brakes and they (generally) have their eyes stuck to the front of their face. They have the perfect view of what is unfolding ahead of them that allows them the extraordinary ability to react to situations and even brake if necessary. Humans don't have their eyes at the back of their head, so it's sort of logical that their view to the side or the rear of the car (where by the way, the engine sits) is very limited. They have tiny side mirrors that vibrate, but give them a very limited view to what is happening behind them. If you've ever driven a car, I would think you have heard of blind-spots too. Then there's also the fact that these drivers wear helmets. If you've ever worn one, you'll know that the view is quite limited. Movement is harder (especially with HANS) too.

Considering all these aspects, I think it's logical to some degree that a driver might have a very limited view of what is unfolding behind him. If an overtaker sticks his nose alongside your rear tires, do you honestly think he'll be aware of that and leave 'appropriate room'? Is it logical to put the sole responsibility in the driver with the limited view to what is happening behind him or to put it in the driver who has the perfect view ahead and hold him responsible to undertake a move that is somewhat feasible?

I'll just let that stand there. If you look at the frames, at best, Vettel's nose was at Verstappen's head position. That was at the point they collided. Up until there, he was pretty much in his blindspot as he was darting for the closing gap.

It surprises me that no one mentioned yet that the line Vettel is taking he would never make the exit of the corner with the amount of speed he caries through the corner.

I did actually. I even drew a nice picture using google-maps to illustrate the respective lines both took into spoon. The normal racing line (Verstappen) and Seb who was on an extremely tight line due to his attempted overtake. Given he was faster than Max and at the point of impact the same speed, but at a much tighter entry into spoon, yes, I too question if he indeed would have made the corner. Certainly he would have had to decelerate even further to not leave the track and that would have put him behind Max (if he had left more space and they had not collided).

[turbof1]

Phil, you can't just hide behind the "he did not see him coming". Yes that can happen, but it is a responsibility of any driver to be aware of his or here surroundings. Look at how critical we all are about Grosjean and his spacial awareness: I'm very sure he doesn't want to push people off the track, but we still hold him responsible for it. For what it is worth, I do think Verstappen was very much aware of Vettel. His PU was derating, meaning he was 160bhp down on power. You are going to feel that Verstappen is more than clever enough that leaves him vulnerable, especially after a restart when everyone is still bunched up.

Again, not blaming Verstappen. That's a wholly different thing. Just saying, "he possibly did not see him coming" is not of any concern to Vettel. We can all find risks to discourage a particular overtake. I do think Verstappen was very aware of Vettel.

I did actually. I even drew a nice picture using google-maps to illustrate the respective lines both took into spoon. The normal racing line (Verstappen) and Seb who was on an extremely tight line due to his attempted overtake. Given he was faster than Max and at the point of impact the same speed, but at a much tighter entry into spoon, yes, I too question if he indeed would have made the corner. Certainly he would have had to decelerate even further to not leave the track and that would have put him behind Max (if he had left more space and they had not collided).

And I drew my picture. You are convinced Vettel was going to shoot straight to the outside edge of the circuit, I wasn't. I will put them both up next to eachother. People should decide for themselves:




btw, I think I drew my picture a bit nicer .

[Phil]

Turbo, you definitely win on the picture part, no arguments there. BUT; I just wanted to say one thing about my picture: I wasn't trying to show that Vettel would have gone straight. Understanding the proper context is crucial. As I wrote when I posted that illustration;

I drew the ideal racing line (the blue one) which Verstappen was on. The ideal racing line has a distinct advantage; It's the fastest way around a corner with the least amount of turn in (larger radius) and the least amount of deceleration/acceleration (highest cornering speed). It means losing less time on acceleration.

Anything other than the racing line is a compromised line. If you take the corner tighter, you will have to make a compromise in the form of a much lower apex speed in order to make the bend. Again, the red line (Vettels line) is Verstappens line but from the inside. I wanted to illustrate how momentum of taking the same speed at a tighter angle would have carried him out of the corner. Indeed it would have, which is why Vettel would have needed to decelerate more. This is how we end up with your illustration. In order for Vettel to have made the corner according to your illustration, he would have had to drive slower than Verstappen as a result of the tighter radius. If he was already ever so slightly behind Max at the point of impact (= before the apex), he most certainly would have fallen even more behind Max if he wanted to take the line you drew for him.

Hence my point earlier; Even if Max had left more room, by the sheer fact of being that bit further ahead and the fact Vettel would have had to decelerate more for the tighter radius he was on would have meant he would have been behind Max and in a compromised position, hence the overtake wasn't going to happen if or if not Max had given more space.

The only way Vettel would have pulled off that overtake is if he had been completely alongside Max or indeed just that bit further ahead of him before hitting the apex. Then he could have outmaneuvered Max to the outside and forced Max to back out / brake and concede position.

[Wynters]

Considering all these aspects, I think it's logical to some degree that a driver might have a very limited view of what is unfolding behind him. If an overtaker sticks his nose alongside your rear tires, do you honestly think he'll be aware of that and leave 'appropriate room'? Is it logical to put the sole responsibility in the driver with the limited view to what is happening behind him or to put it in the driver who has the perfect view ahead and hold him responsible to undertake a move that is somewhat feasible?

I'll just let that stand there. If you look at the frames, at best, Vettel's nose was at Verstappen's head position. That was at the point they collided. Up until there, he was pretty much in his blindspot as he was darting for the closing gap.

I'm not putting sole responsibility on Verstappen, you are moving the goal posts. You are putting sole responsibility on Vettel and that's what I'm contesting. You say that the fact they crashed showed that Vettel's move was impossible. I say that if Max had left him racing room, they wouldn't have crashed. You say that if you try to overtake into Spoon any contact is definitively your fault. I'm saying that's not the case.

In your reply you don't contest my points, you just smoothly shift into "It's hard for humans to see behind themselves therefore any contact is entirely the fault of the car behind." I'd suggest that having a vague idea of what's going on around you is quite useful for an F1 driver and that other drivers seem able to do it (although famously not Vettel).

You even contradict yourself...

Because, obviously, there are certain limits to what a defending driver can or can't do. On a straight you have the '1 defensive-move'. You either block the inside and force a driver attacking your position onto the outside, or you defend the outside. Either way, swerving is not allowed, neither are blocking moves, e.g. reacting to what a driver is doing behind you. This is usually the etiquette on straights. Obviously going into corners, there's the racing line to take into account.

It's no easier to see behind you on a straight (such as the straight Vettel used to place a significant portion of his car alongside Verstappen's) so, apparently, any impact caused by the lead driver swerving about is 'solely' the fault of the driver behind?

Considering all these aspects, I think it's logical to some degree that a driver might have a very limited view of what is unfolding behind him. If an overtaker sticks his nose alongside your rear tires, do you honestly think he'll be aware of that and leave 'appropriate room'? Is it logical to put the sole responsibility in the driver with the limited view to what is happening behind him or to put it in the driver who has the perfect view ahead and hold him responsible to undertake a move that is somewhat feasible?

Or, perhaps, neither driver bears sole responsibility in some instances?