Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Tommy Cookers]

With ultra lean NOx emissions drop by 99.75% down to 2 or 3 parts per million.

2 to 3 ppm. :shock: I would have never guessed a race engine would ever approach that level.

imo it doesn't because it chooses the highest possible in-cycle temperature to get highest power

[PlatinumZealot]

I don't think that it was ever explicitly stated that it was NOx that these PU's produce high levels of. It was just stated that the exhaust emissions weren't environmentally friendly or healthy to those around it.

If I had to guess, it would be fuel additives that would be the major cause of any harmful emissions.

If high levels of NOx are also present then I would imagine that they would be formed from the very high temperature flame jets.

Gas turbines suffer from that problem (where a lot of the development money is going to reduce NOx outputs on commercial turbofans). Even though the overall air:fuel ratio is very high, the combustion event itself is limited to a very small area where the mixture is much closer to stoichiometric. Ergo high combustion temperatures and high levels of NOx.

Yeah the SAE papers showed high levels of NOx.

While some of us recognise someone being funny, many won't so please use facts.

With ultra lean NOx emissions drop by 99.75% down to 2 or 3 parts per million.

That graph is at lamda = 1. My common senss tell me the graph title is a typo.
That graph is not to be interpeted that way. Look at that graph with the one with the wider range of lambda..
The NOx values are almost the same for the same lambda.
I have the papers here. I will snapshot if i get the time.

It shows that you are reading without interpreting data. Look at both NOx graphs. Note there are lean burn normal spark engines that acheive lambda near lambda 1.5 too, but the NOx data for those are not presented, but I would expect it not to be far off from TJI for similar lambda.

[saviour stivala]

The idle speed (RPM) of the formula 1 hybrid power unit is 1000RPM higher than the highest readings of those graphs. And the idle speed is useless for the F1 car other than when stationary.

[Thunder18]

Wazari previously stated that these engines produce a lot of Nox, though never went into specific detail.

Can someone translate this news post?
https://f1-gate.com/honda/f1_46690.html

[ispano6]

Wazari previously stated that these engines produce a lot of Nox, though never went into specific detail.

Can someone translate this news post?
https://f1-gate.com/honda/f1_46690.html

The article is pretty much the same as https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... e/4317970/

[Thunder18]

Wazari previously stated that these engines produce a lot of Nox, though never went into specific detail.

Can someone translate this news post?
https://f1-gate.com/honda/f1_46690.html

The article is pretty much the same as https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... e/4317970/

Oops, my bad. Thanks

[Snorked]

I bit the bullet and purchased a copy:
https://i.ibb.co/Bs7G7bz/1.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/r7D6S67/2.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/nLwFRnY/3.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/nf3xjPv/4.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/42yNFT7/4-1.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/wYfn0CB/5.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/LRMt5SL/5-1.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/1vjJqmX/6.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/ss0f6G3/7.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/zr4rG5N/8.jpg

So was there any interesting info in this?

[PlatinumZealot]

Wazari previously stated that these engines produce a lot of Nox, though never went into specific detail.

Can someone translate this news post?
https://f1-gate.com/honda/f1_46690.html

That is because the very important parameter of charge air pressure comes into play. Which some posters here also did neglect. Highly boosted engines have a lot of Nitrogen to oxidise!

[munudeges]

That is because the very important parameter of charge air pressure comes into play. Which some posters here also did neglect. Highly boosted engines have a lot of Nitrogen to oxidise!

Road engines have followed a very similar trajectory of increasing efficiency via turbos, higher pressures, higher temperatures and higher levels of such emissions that filters and converters then have to manage, although there is an amusing piece of propaganda floating around that this only happens to diesel vehicles.

This should not really be a big shock to anyone.

[godlameroso]

That is because the very important parameter of charge air pressure comes into play. Which some posters here also did neglect. Highly boosted engines have a lot of Nitrogen to oxidise!

Road engines have followed a very similar trajectory of increasing efficiency via turbos, higher pressures, higher temperatures and higher levels of such emissions that filters and converters then have to manage, although there is an amusing piece of propaganda floating around that this only happens to diesel vehicles.

This should not really be a big shock to anyone.

Andy Cowell claims that combustion gases are 2,000 degrees C, no doubt massively diluted by air, however that flame temp is enough to produce some NOx. Also interesting he claims exhaust gases at the turbine are ~1,000 C

[Dr. Acula]

That is because the very important parameter of charge air pressure comes into play. Which some posters here also did neglect. Highly boosted engines have a lot of Nitrogen to oxidise!

Road engines have followed a very similar trajectory of increasing efficiency via turbos, higher pressures, higher temperatures and higher levels of such emissions that filters and converters then have to manage, although there is an amusing piece of propaganda floating around that this only happens to diesel vehicles.

This should not really be a big shock to anyone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XH08P5 ... G84DW08ZFI

Andy Cowell claims that combustion gases are 2,000 degrees C, no doubt massively diluted by air, however that flame temp is enough to produce some NOx. Also interesting he claims exhaust gases at the turbine are ~1,000 C

Well, 2000°C would mean a quite massive formation of thermal NOx.
About 1000°C exhaust gas temperature at the turbine sounds about right. Turbo manufacterers have tested new materials to be able to operate at such temperatures for several years now.

https://www.mhi.co.jp/technology/review ... 453001.pdf

[gruntguru]

That graph is at lamda = 1. My common senss tell me the graph title is a typo.

The graph title (% NOx Reduction over Baseline SI (lambda=1)) simply means "% NOx Reduction over Baseline SI".

The "(lambda=1)" is just telling us that the baseline SI engine readings were taken at lambda=1.

[Snorked]

Rumour says Honda have been working with Exxon for 2019 on a new Honda development where the fuel passes through a device to give it an extra kick.

So Googling, and an article from 2016 popped up - this seems to be fuel reforming, is this allowed in F1?:

https://tech.nikkeibp.co.jp/dm/atclen/n ... 041500509/

Specifically, gasoline fuel and exhaust gas are turned into hydrogen by using a catalyst, and the hydrogen is mixed with intake air. The combustion speed of hydrogen is very high, making the combustion in the engine cylinders faster. When a larger amount of exhaust gas is returned to the engine cylinders for EGR, combustion becomes difficult while fuel efficiency improves. The method can solve this problem.

Honda Motor Co Ltd is making efforts to develop a method that is different from the method of producing hydrogen.

[lio007]

Rumour says Honda have been working with Exxon for 2019 on a new Honda development where the fuel passes through a device to give it an extra kick.

...

I wonder where you all get this rumours from?

Quite excited for preseason testing!

[saviour stivala]

Rumour says Honda have been working with Exxon for 2019 on a new Honda development where the fuel passes through a device to give it an extra kick.

So Googling, and an article from 2016 popped up - this seems to be fuel reforming, is this allowed in F1?:

https://tech.nikkeibp.co.jp/dm/atclen/n ... 041500509/

Specifically, gasoline fuel and exhaust gas are turned into hydrogen by using a catalyst, and the hydrogen is mixed with intake air. The combustion speed of hydrogen is very high, making the combustion in the engine cylinders faster. When a larger amount of exhaust gas is returned to the engine cylinders for EGR, combustion becomes difficult while fuel efficiency improves. The method can solve this problem.

Honda Motor Co Ltd is making efforts to develop a method that is different from the method of producing hydrogen.

I did came upon this interesting fuel reforming subject being set upon mostly by Japanese automakers including Honda. But I could not see how this fuel reforming will involve Honda F1 project because as long as Honda is involved in F1 it will have to abide by the F1 rules and regulations as regards the fuel used in F1. The way I understand it is, reforming the fuel as specified is changing the fuel specification when used.