F1 2019 Pre-Season Testing Thread

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
muramasa
muramasa
58
Joined: 05 Oct 2017, 16:33

Re: F1 2019 Pre-Season Testing Thread

Post

Mr.G wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 20:53
dans79 wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 19:21
dren wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 19:09
What's the point of sandbagging? Does it make the other teams decide to slack on their development?
two reasons off the top of my head why you might want to sandbag.

1. You have something on your car that offers a substantial performance advantage that the other teams haven't picked up on. If you light up the time sheets your car is going to be put under a microscope to try and determine how you did it. If you take it easy, the other teams might not pick up on it till the season starts. That means you will be several races into the season before they can get it on their cars.

2. You have something on your car that offers a substantial performance advantage that the other teams haven't picked up on, that might get protested or banned. Just like above, if you can delay when the other teams start copying it, you can build a lead in the early part of the season.


Just look at last year, Mercedes knew Ferrari was doing something different with the ERS early in the season, but they didn't get an update to their system till post Spa.
What about Brown GP? Did they sand bag? No they were fast... And what was the word around? They must be doing glory runs to attract sponsor. Well you know how it ended...
You are just missing the context. Brawn GP was totally different case, they having skipped chunk of testings due to the situation everyone should know did not have such luxury of meticulously structuring testing program, they had no choice but to just throw everything and bang to fast track program and evaluate everything and be race ready right away. It's roughly the same for smaller teams now or always, they do not have resources so they just have to go for definitive solution/package from get go. Meanwhile bigger teams with more resources can afford to make program such that they start from comprehensive basic evaluation and correlation of aero and system to lay the foundation, which enables parametric development that's much more precise and has much more potential throughout the season and beyond. Just look at Merc's front wing and RBR's front wing and rear wing endplates, do you really think these are definitive versions? They look obviously and laughably basic. Even Ferrari's current package look basic. They definitely will transform a lot as season progresses.

User avatar
dans79
267
Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: F1 2019 Pre-Season Testing Thread

Post

Mr.G wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 20:53
What about Brown GP? Did they sand bag? No they were fast... And what was the word around? They must be doing glory runs to attract sponsor. Well you know how it ended...
They weren't fastest until a couple of days into the second to last round of testing. And look what happened, they showed their hand early, and by mid season the top teams had out developed them and caught up. They won 6(!85%) of the first 7 races, but only 2 (20%) of the last 10.

Regardless of what team or year it is, you don't want to show you hand until you absolutely have to!
201 105 104 9 9 7

TimmTurbo
TimmTurbo
2
Joined: 03 Feb 2012, 13:46
Location: Germany

Re: F1 2019 Pre-Season Testing Thread

Post

PhillipM wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 20:31
TimmTurbo wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 18:54

holding back because of internal reasons I agree but whenever there is components available which makes you faster it is a no-brainer to put them on right away in order to verify data with reality.
No, it isn't - if some designer says "look, I've found half a tenth with this bit, and it works with everything on the car" - you don't bolt that part straight on the car. You look at how much time and effort it's taken to refine that part and how much more it might take for more optimisations vs the runtime in simulation/windtunnel/durability testings.
If you can get another half a tenth out of it with more work, and you think your car is already fast enough, you'll leave it and let them optimise it more before you run it, whilst your production works on parts that are already far enough into diminishing returns that they're not worth more time and effort.
You'll probably have quite a few parts that show an improvement but are also so sensitive that they sometimes work in sims and sometimes don't, or they're failing your durability sims, if your car is fast, you'll let them have more development time on them to try to mitigate the risks more. If you know your opponent is faster, you'll stick them on the car and risk it.

I don't know why some of you seem to be believe you just come up with an idea for a part and make it, development works nothing like that, it's a continous, massively iterative process.

First of all the process is different, the designers typically have a given target given by CFD, Manufacuring, or Validation dept. when they touch on a certain component. They don't just sit around and brainstorm. Nobody thinks that the car is fast enough, and that's exactly my point.

I fully agree with you referring to this process, but the initial statement was there is no sense behind sandbagging or hesitating putting something good on the car asap.

I know how hard it is to get a concept to pass internal gates as im an Engineer myself. We don't use CFD but FEA. We run several iterations always under extreme time pressure 24/7. My corporation spends millions / year in improving simulations (FEA) but now matter how hard we try, at the end one thing is for sure, you can be close but never reach 100%.

TimmTurbo
TimmTurbo
2
Joined: 03 Feb 2012, 13:46
Location: Germany

Re: F1 2019 Pre-Season Testing Thread

Post

Phil wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 20:53
TimmTurbo wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 20:34
#1 Do you really think Merc is currently not under the "microscope" as they don't throw in quick laps ?
Yes, but not as to which area. When a team “sandbags” it could be to hide or deflect attention from a specific aero part/invention or it could be entirely related to the engine/ERS part. By not showing your true performance (or masking it), opposing teams may be looking a little less closely in the relevant areas.

Unless you propose it’s beneficial to just come out and be as transparent as possible? I would think not.
How Transparent are you actually when putting the hammer down on some days during testing ? Still nobody knows if there is still a shovel of gravel left ? Nobody knows how your aero is working as nobody can create a 3D scan in the pits and check in CFD......

I see there is a lot of different opinions here which I like very much by the way.

I guess I leave it for now, don't want to spam the thread too much :D

SpeeDemon
SpeeDemon
0
Joined: 14 Sep 2018, 23:22

Re: F1 2019 Pre-Season Testing Thread

Post

Does anyone know the mileage ranking for teams till now?
I think mercedes are way ahead with Ferrari second

PhillipM
PhillipM
386
Joined: 16 May 2011, 15:18
Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: F1 2019 Pre-Season Testing Thread

Post

TimmTurbo wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 21:40
How Transparent are you actually when putting the hammer down on some days during testing ? Still nobody knows if there is still a shovel of gravel left ?
Doesn't matter if you're already faster than they know their car is.

muramasa
muramasa
58
Joined: 05 Oct 2017, 16:33

Re: F1 2019 Pre-Season Testing Thread

Post

dans79 wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 21:17
Mr.G wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 20:53
What about Brown GP? Did they sand bag? No they were fast... And what was the word around? They must be doing glory runs to attract sponsor. Well you know how it ended...
They weren't fastest until a couple of days into the second to last round of testing. And look what happened, they showed their hand early, and by mid season the top teams had out developed them and caught up. They won 6(!85%) of the first 7 races, but only 2 (20%) of the last 10.

Regardless of what team or year it is, you don't want to show you hand until you absolutely have to!
No, Brawn GP only had managed to complete the car just in time for the season opener and do couple of private testings before going to Melbourne, due to obvious reason, and they were appallingly fast from the 1st testing, their race sim/stint time relative to others was like Formula Brawn and the rest. We fans were wondering like, "no this cannot be genuine pace, other teams were not pushing, also track temp etc are all different so cannot compare", "....no it's real, this is just too dominant to be fake..." etc. Alas it turned out that they dominated Melbourne and the first half of the season.

User avatar
TAG
20
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 16:18
Location: in a good place

Re: F1 2019 Pre-Season Testing Thread

Post

At what point during winter testing does Ferrari practice the part of the season where they unravel at the seams?

Such colorful commentary in these winter testing threads, you can almost cut and paste the discussion from year to year. It's always the same guys, first go around they validate things, second go around they optimize things, Melbourne they show up with a half dozen upgrades and we then shift to the real picture of the pecking order won't be established until they get back to Barcelona. Rinse, lather, repeat.

I'm enjoying the wild hypothesis and definitive declarations from fans and the media a like. Keep them coming!

In the mean time enjoy some pretty damned good quality YouTube video (and sound!) here from today's testing.

Last edited by TAG on 20 Feb 2019, 22:03, edited 2 times in total.
माकडाच्या हाती कोलीत

User avatar
amho
1
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 21:15
Location: Iran

Re: F1 2019 Pre-Season Testing Thread

Post

Does anyone have the testing speed trap data?
There is no Might or Power except with Allah.

SpeeDemon
SpeeDemon
0
Joined: 14 Sep 2018, 23:22

Re: F1 2019 Pre-Season Testing Thread

Post

I just calculated the top mileage racking teams :

Merc : 495 Laps
Ferrari : 460
Renault : 375
Alfa : 353
STR : 346
RB: 329
Mclaren : 313

Hamerhaai
Hamerhaai
0
Joined: 24 Feb 2018, 00:41

Re: F1 2019 Pre-Season Testing Thread

Post

No need for SpeeDemon as it is all done for you here:
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... stest-laps

And if you could add 0.7sec to each compound, the sequence would be as follows (after three days, top driver of each team):
Ferrari
Red Bull
Renault
Haas
Toro Rosso
Alfa Romeo
McLaren
Mercedes
RacingPoint
Williams

Capharol
Capharol
21
Joined: 04 Nov 2018, 17:06

Re: F1 2019 Pre-Season Testing Thread

Post

SpeeDemon wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 22:01
I just calculated the top mileage racking teams :

Merc : 495 Laps
Ferrari : 460
Renault : 375
Alfa : 353
STR : 346
RB: 329
Mclaren : 313
For good measures you need to add STR and RB together (675 laps), same goes for Renault + McLaren (688 laps)
both using the same engine

TimmTurbo
TimmTurbo
2
Joined: 03 Feb 2012, 13:46
Location: Germany

Re: F1 2019 Pre-Season Testing Thread

Post

Just read an article about Toto Wolff left Barcelona and headed back to the factory. He gave some interviews today afternoon before he went on the plane stating that it is clear for them that Ferrari is min. 0,5 sec / lap quicker more consistent and shockingly reliable. I don't know which journalist is left out there buying Mr. Wolffs Bullshit in 2019. He is 100% politician hence not telling anything while talking a lot.

F1TV Quote: Johnny Herbert "bumped" into another bloke in the bathroom (whatever this means). He reportedly told him that RB sees themselves in front of Merc and slightly behind Ferrari.

The actual long runs today draw a complete different picture. Im confused

BrunoH
BrunoH
0
Joined: 18 Sep 2016, 13:18

Re: F1 2019 Pre-Season Testing Thread

Post

today was an odd day, i could not really understand if teams were pushing hard or not, low fuel or high fuel, Mclaren in particular, im also confused because in the first 2 days things looked more clear...

Capharol
Capharol
21
Joined: 04 Nov 2018, 17:06

Re: F1 2019 Pre-Season Testing Thread

Post

TimmTurbo wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 22:27
F1TV Quote: Johnny Herbert "bumped" into another bloke in the bathroom (whatever this means). He reportedly told him that RB sees themselves in front of Merc and slightly behind Ferrari.
this wasn't some bloke in the bathroom, it was Horner himself saying "he sees a fight between Ferrari v Red Bull and not Ferrari v Mercedes.

I even postet an article here from AMuS where it is writen
viewtopic.php?p=814440#p814440