Belgian GP 2008

[Rob W]

Actually... a couple of corners after this pass Kimi drove completely off the track around the runoff area and came back onto the track really close to Hamilton. The commentator even said in those conditions the run-off sometimes gave more grip..

Anyway, that move allowed Kimi to be right with Hamilton when they encountered the Williams just before the lead swapped again and then Kimi crashed.

If Kimi had held that lead he would have gained a clear advantage from driving off the track.

R

[modbaraban]

Actually... a couple of corners after this pass Kimi drove completely off the track around the runoff area and came back onto the track really close to Hamilton. The commentator even said in those conditions the run-off sometimes gave more grip..

Anyway, that move allowed Kimi to be right with Hamilton when they encountered the Williams just before the lead swapped again and then Kimi crashed.

If Kimi had held that lead he would have gained a clear advantage from driving off the track.

R

If you tune your eyes a bit to see other colours and not just red you'll see Lewis right there in front of him running even wider at Pouchon. Although he left the area earlier.


And then Kimi did get in front of him. But Lewis wasn't on the track by then.

What happened to Heiki?

Heikki's race,

Poor start, swamped and squeezed by the midfield...ended up 13th after the first couple of corners.

Then later, when going for 6th (absolutely stormed up from 13th) he cocked it all up and tripped up on Webber (indecisive overtake attempt at the bus-stop). He was given a drive through for that...and never properly recovered, certainly not into the points..

Thanks. I watched the race. I was wondering about the reason of retirement.

[boci]

Yes but Lewis got back on the road as soon as possibly while Kimi accelerated in the run off area and came back on the track only when the run off area ended.

[WhiteBlue]

all of this has nothing to do with the disputed advantage at bus stop. one should focus at the decisive issue. with kimi crashed all that matters is the legality of Hamilton's move to let Kimi back into the lead between bus stop and la source. in my view he did ok and the stewards screwed up. I have yet to hear a reasoning for the penalty for Hamilton.

[modbaraban]

Yes but Lewis got back on the road as soon as possibly while Kimi accelerated in the run off area and came back on the track only when the run off area ended.

I did say that LH left the runoff area earlier, but that's because he left the track earlier too, so he was able to return before the big curb thing began. Kimi had to stay on the other side of the curb to rejoin when the curb ended. He gained nothing there as the tarmac is always more wet off the racing line, let alone the runoff areas. The line off the track didn't help approaching the next corner either. He only passed Lewis because LH went off the track later and almost stopped to keep the car from spinning. You can see that on the second picture.

That's hardly relevant though, as WhiteBlue said.

I have yet to hear a reasoning for the penalty for Hamilton.

Assume there were walls right where the white lines are. Can you imagine LH recovering so quickly after the bad attempt and then be in position to overtake KR in turn 1?

[WhiteBlue]

I have yet to hear a reasoning for the penalty for Hamilton.

Assume there were walls right where the white lines are. Can you imagine LH recovering so quickly after the bad attempt and then be in position to overtake KR in turn 1?

I'm afraid I don't understand your point. The situation was simple and clear. there wasn't space at bus stop and Hamilton cut the corner off track.

fact is there are no walls there. He wasn't allowed to keep the advantage that he gained and he ceded the advantage as required.

so what do you think he did wrong? we have to treat this by the facts and the facts all say Hamilton did ok.

Btw, we had former F1 champs with a reputation for no bullshitters giving the verdict on this: both Nicki Lauda and Keke Rosberg saw no flaw in Hamilton's driving there. both men have come down hard on Michael Schumacher when he screwed up (like the Rascasse parking). I do not see the amateur stewards make more sense then those men who have done it when lives were at stake in F1 and lived to give us their opinion now.

[Rob W]

he gained nothing there as the tarmac is always more wet off the racing line, let alone the runoff areas. The line off the track didn't help approaching the next corner either...

Not according to Brundle who said in these conditions the runn-off aread often have more grip. It allowed Kimi to re-enter the race track at full speed which he would otherwise had not been able to had he stayed on the track. This alone allowed him to stay right on Hamilton's ass. This would seem to fall within the definition of 'making a gain' according to the way it has been interpreted before.

But, fair enough, this isn't the issue at hand. I was just pointing out the pretty changeable rulings/views of the marshals when it suits them.

If this ruling stands it'll be another shameful day for F1. I can't wait for Jackie Stewart, Flavio, Sir Frank, Bernie etc to pipe in with their opinions on it.

R

[modbaraban]

I'm afraid I don't understand your point. The situation was simple and clear. there wasn't space at bus stop and Hamilton cut the corner off track.

fact is there are no walls there. He wasn't allowed to keep the advantage that he gained and he ceded the advantage as required.

He didn't. That's my point. After an unsuccessful overtaking attempt he would be several seconds behind unless cutting the corner. The advantage wasn't really given away. Let alone the naughty swerving while KR passed him.

That's why the Retifilo chicane at Monza has a shurtcut with a slalom sort of thing made of plastic blocks. You are supposed to lose time off the track, not gain.

There were many questionnable decisions taken in regards of Shoey and Ferrari in the past (ilke ones in Hungary 2006). This one clearly isn't one of those.

[Rob W]

..After an unsuccessful overtaking attempt he would be several seconds behind unless cutting the corner. The advantage wasn't really given away. Let alone the crazy swerving while KR passed him.

The rules don't say you have to give them back X seconds or estimate the time you would have lost had you not run off track do they? - I thought they said the place must be yielded, which it was - 100%.

By the logic some are implying here, Kimi could have immediately slowed down to prevent Hamilton yielding the position and thus forcing a penalty on him.. or Kimi could have taken the position and then driven slow to keep Hamilton behind him lest a pass invoke unfair advantage claims again.. Sound silly?

Point being, you can't really judge a car based on the relative speed of the other car - but only the position on track it holds.

R

[FGD]

To me the issue is clear. Hamilton did gain some advantage by cutting the chicane. However, he clearly lifted... letting Kimi by and tucked in behind the Ferrari on the run up to La Source.

What more should Hamilton have done? Pulled over and shut it down? Louis drove brilliantly in the wet and deserved better than to be demoted.

[WhiteBlue]

yep, modbaraban is wrong. it isn't the drivers responsibility if the off track is faster than the track. all he has to do is let the other guy re pass for position by a clean car length and then he can go back on attack. if the FIA want the off track to be slower they could place a couple of safety barriers that Hamilton would have to negotiate at bus stop. they didn't do this and so the driver did ok.

[modbaraban]

The rules don't say you have to give them back X seconds or estimate the time you would have lost had you not run off track do they? - I thought they said the place must be yielded, which it was - 100%.

That doesn't make sense. Can a driver A leave the track after a bad overtaking attempt and then gain like 20 seconds cutting every possible corner and chicane one the way catching up to the driver B, get back right ahead of the driver B and then get himself right up his back and get away with it? Why not? Let's if he does that in every chicane in Monza to make up some time lost in the pitstops.

I reckon LH going out of 1:00.000 in the quali, as maccas are good on the curbs lately.

By the logic some are implying here, Kimi could have immediately slowed down to prevent Hamilton yielding the position and thus forcing a penalty on him.. or Kimi could have taken the position and then driven slow to keep Hamilton behind him lest a pass invoke unfair advantage claims again.. Sound silly?

Sounds like mania.

[Rob W]

Sounds like mania.

That was the (sarcastic) point of it all. How much time do you have to yield? Or is it only the position that matters?

I have timed the video of Kimi repassing Hamilton he regains the lead for between 5.5 and 6.5 seconds... or about 240 - 400m of the track. (Est at an average if 160km/h - which is probably conservative)

Just how much do you need to give back?

And what if Kimi's engine had blown up five seconds later? Hamilton, by the logic applied by the FIA, would still have gained his advantage... over a car which didn't even finish ha ha!!!!.

R

[modbaraban]

I have timed the video of Kimi repassing Hamilton he regains the lead for between 5.5 and 6.5 seconds... or about 240 - 400m of the track. (Est at an average if 160km/h - which is probably conservative)

Just how much do you need to give back?

And what if Kimi's engine had blown up five seconds later? Hamilton, by the logic applied by the FIA, would still have gained his advantage... over a car which didn't even finish ha ha!!!!.

R

You should have made that point earlier. Before the race, that is. Knowing that kimi would push the smashed up car to the finish line and won the race

PS: 160km/h on worn out semi-slicks on the wettest spot of the track which is btw one of the shortest strart-finish straights of all - sounds realistic.

PPS:


The angle of McLaren's steering says it all. He could easily get back on the track just going straght.

[Scotracer]

Yes but if he had gone straight on, modbaraban, he would have crashed straight into the side of Kimi.