Belgian GP 2008

[pgj]

I support the majority of what you say Whiteblue. The problem with the break-off foam is that it would work for the first incident and would them become a moving obstacle and a possible danger to drivers on the track. I always liked the old catch fencing, but that only worked for the first car to use it and then became a danger to other cars until it was removed.

Drive-off areas should be safety areas that arrest cars movement safely without allowing them back onto the track.

[SZ]

No..Lewis was on the track in front of Kimi and lifted on the start finish straight. He could have crossed the line in the lead..had he not allowed Kimi passed him by bleeding off a bit of throttle.

Kimi had such poor braking performance that he would have been mugged into La Source either way.

No doubt KR would have lost the race either way - or that LH deserved the win otherwise - but that's not the issue.

The question is whether or not he gained any advantage in overtaking where he did from being off-track.

That's what McLaren have to disprove if they want this overturned. It's a bit hard when it's very obvious that had he not been off track, he'd be nowhere near close enough to take KR cleans where he did. It's a crying shame because - as said before - he'd have likely taken him anyway.

The many other issues people bring into this (F1's a farce/Ferrari/driver's won't race each other/whatever) are all irrelevant. The rules are clear and LH's move was marginal.

RobW if there's anything unjust it's that KR isn't getting done over for overtaking under yellows - if able to be proved - but there's nothing unjust about the investigation and penalty for LH.

A slowdown like you propose could be very dangerous.

[Spencifer_Murphy]

Its a shame, I feel it was a harsch decision becuase, yeh we saw the same thing happen to him at france, but this time he gave the position back...it just seems that you cannot win in these circumstances. What really frustrates me though is the manner in which this has been done. At france they were told they should have given the place back..."Okay we'll do that in future if this occursd again" so it does, and they do and then they're told "Ah what the hell, lets revoke your win 3 hours after the race finished." Now I'm sorry but how f'ing long does it usually take these stewards to bring up the "Car number X is being investigated by the stewards" box on the TV? After the incident they must have had nearly 5mins to do it....it didn't take them that long at France now did it? Had that come up, or even the "Car Number 22 will be investigated after te race" type of comment (like Ferrari's pitlane non-infringement @ Valencia) then there wouldn't be so much of an issue...but they waited until after the tophies were given on the podium and everything...like they derive some sort of cruel pleasure from it. Its a disgrace...why can't this sport govern itself properly.

With regards to the incident itself, when I first saw it I was shouting "Give the place back to Kimi!" and was then relieved he did. I, like most others I've spoken to, then thought, well fair enough he's done what he's meant to. But its still marginal because cutting the corner MAY have helped him in the run down to La Source. BUT, Kimi pushed Lewis wide on a damp track, on dry tyres, had Lewis not cut the corner so much (i.e taken to that thin strip of grass or astro turf (which ever it may be)) He would have slid into Kimi and taken them both out...could you imagine the outrage?!

I feel he did the right thing in relenquishing the lead, and that the penalty is a bit unfair. But what can you do? These things happen, its not like the penalty was totally 100% unjustified, you can see why then do it, and clearly we all have different opinions on the matter. I feel its a shame that the stewards took so long to deside because it could potentiall damage our sport...

...Imagine if this incident could lead to Lewis not winning the title, (let say every other race was really close none of the WDC contenders retire or have any problems etc.), the media will be all over it claiming that "For two years in sucession the title has been decided OFF TRACK" now, however little truth there may be in that, it WILL discourage certain people from watching. Just what we need eh?

Disgraceful.

[axle]

Those citing KR passing under yellow...he only passed under yellow when LH was miles off the track already so I don't think that's valid!

[myurr]

The question is whether or not he gained any advantage in overtaking where he did from being off-track.

That's what McLaren have to disprove if they want this overturned. It's a bit hard when it's very obvious that had he not been off track, he'd be nowhere near close enough to take KR cleans where he did. It's a crying shame because - as said before - he'd have likely taken him anyway.

The many other issues people bring into this (F1's a farce/Ferrari/driver's won't race each other/whatever) are all irrelevant. The rules are clear and LH's move was marginal.

Well Charlie Whiting disagreed with you, he felt that LH's move was legitimate.

[Belatti]

Would it be a good idea to make the 1996 Monza GP kind of chicanes in every track to avoid these kind of stupid situations? What do you think?

[myurr]

Those citing KR passing under yellow...he only passed under yellow when LH was miles off the track already so I don't think that's valid!

Watch it again, Lewis was still on track, albeit on his way off after swerving to avoid Rosberg.

And Kimi was only in the position to make that move because he had run off the track on the previous corner and used the superior traction out there to get a run on Hamilton.

If Lewis deserved a penalty, then so does Kimi. Frankly I don't think either of them should - we should be encouraging this kind of racing, not sterilising the sport further.

[Conceptual]

Those citing KR passing under yellow...he only passed under yellow when LH was miles off the track already so I don't think that's valid!

Watch it again, Lewis was still on track, albeit on his way off after swerving to avoid Rosberg.

And Kimi was only in the position to make that move because he had run off the track on the previous corner and used the superior traction out there to get a run on Hamilton.

If Lewis deserved a penalty, then so does Kimi. Frankly I don't think either of them should - we should be encouraging this kind of racing, not sterilising the sport further.

This thread only says one thing...

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

On to Monza.

[jddh1]

If Lewis deserved a penalty, then so does Kimi.

We can all agree that Kimi gave himself a penalty...hitting the barriers.

Some people say that Lewis might have taken out Kimi. Well, I would've wanted that as it would've been Felipe winning and the aforementioned two drivers getting no points.

But again, this is racing, then RACE!

[jddh1]

Oh, and who thinks that Seb Bourdais should be kept by STR, and who thinks he should be fired, shot and guillotined?

I think he deserves another year at it.

[Shaddock]

This is the position of the two cars leading up to the Bus Stop. Lewis under Kimi's rear wing.



Under braking Lewis pulls ahead slightly.



Kimi closes the door forcing Lewis towards the kerb.



Lewis cuts the corner and allows Kimi back past him on the start finish straight.

At this point Lewis is in the same position in terms of track position as he was BEFORE the Bus Stop. If he hadn't attempted to pass Kimi at the Bus Stop he would have been in this postiton. Having cut the corner he puts himself in the same postition as if he'd made the corner. No advantage gained but also no disadvantage to himself.



Kimi responding to Lewis at La Source



Kimi at the start of Phouhon on the run off area.



Still on the run off area



Rejoining in Lewis's slip stream.



Lewis taking to the run off area to avoid the Williams, Kimi almost running into the back of the McLaren.



Kimi passing Lewis for the second time this lap and the Williams under a yellow flag.

[axle]

I think he deserves another year at it.

Agreed

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, it seems the thread has cooled enough to risk beign nagged (but without having to edit the very same posts you are trying to answer... ).

Would it be a good idea to make the 1996 Monza GP kind of chicanes in every track to avoid these kind of stupid situations? What do you think?

Well, Belatti, let me speak for everyone here, like everyone else is doing.

No, it's not a good idea, because Hamilton would have crashed and he would have lost valuable points toward his championship.

On the other hand, maybe you're right. After all, one of our most prized constitutionally protected duties at a forum is to try to invent solutions to non-existent problems. I would estimate that lately this occupies 85 percent of my time around here. Usually I fail, but it's better than listening to other members opinions.

And that is why we must stress to our children how important racing is. We must tell them: Race hard! Learn as much as you can! Because we, your predecessors in racing, are getting stupider by the day. We're experiencing massive brain leakage.

Besides, I don't think this is a stupid situation at all. It worries me. I think it shows a glimpse of Hamilton's health status. I quote him:

"I was accelerating so that I didn't lose too much ground, because I thought that would be unfair. I didn't want to wait until he'd flown past because we were still racing.

Racing through the chicanes... That statement implies that we have here a very grave situation. Hamilton suffers from a disease that we call in this forum "testicular otitis". It's a dreaded disease, lemme tell you: people can actually hear you, they even can repeat what you've said to them, but they pretend to be bollocks.

No, no, don't laugh. This thing is serious. I suggest to make a complete medical review of Hamilton's ears. He risks his championship, because I've heard you need ears to drive an F1 car.

I have a theory here: it's the cloning. You'll see: Enzo Ferrari did not die. He faked his own death. Or, if he died, he cloned himself and educated himself in the same exact way. He then converted himself through advanced cosmetic surgery into a british mechanic and got involved into the McLaren team, which he currently runs! Then (and that's the incredible part), he cloned himself again and through even more advanced cosmetic surgery, his "son" became an F1 driver. Hence the weakness of hearing: caused by repeated cloning. Can't you see it? Dennis and Hamilton behave like the old Enzo did... So, it's a conspiracy! With a lot of exclamation marks! I'm enraged at that! I have proof! Someone told me!

Besides, who are those so-called FIA stewards? I've been following F1 for some years and I've watched every race: take that, so-called FIA stewards with your fancy titles of so-called "expertise"! Who needs telemetry when you have pictures of the so-called race?

Now, in my exalted role as moderator, I'll teach you what we've learned from the International Sporting Code at this forum: to contradict every decission against our interests or our favoritism, claiming that is a cheat. That's the spirit of the Sporting Code, no more, no less. Sportmanship? I'll teach you sportmanship. Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser (me).

Unfortunately, Withmarsh has more common sense than the rest of the team:

Team boss Ron Dennis, meanwhile, invited reporters to "draw your own conclusions" about anti-McLaren conspiracy theories.

"I'm sure Ron didn't indicate that really," said his deputy, Whitmarsh. "He had the frustrations that happen immediately after the race. We had three penalties this weekend, we have got to accept it and move on."

You know, in times past we complained that Ferrari cheated at every race and got away with it.

Nowadays, things have changed. Nowadays we complain about McLaren cheating at every race and NOT getting away with it. O tempora, o mores.

But enough about me. Let's go back to the

OTHER RACE NEWS: I am not aware of other race news.

[donskar]

Lots of heat in this thread and absolutely no light.

I do commend those who posted the following:

... you'll see that LH couldn't by any means be that close to KR if he'd stay on the track exiting the last corner. But what he did was an unsuccessful overtaking attempt after which he ran wide cutting the corner and then got right up the rear wing of KR's car. That means he took advantage of cutting the track.



Cutting a corner and then dropping back in the tow/falling into a better line/maintaining your momentum to help overtake thereafter and calling it fair is about as obvious as stalling your car in the dying seconds of qualifying on a tight track and bringing an early end to the session after you've P1'd. You can debate all the way into the night with regard to what degree you've met the rules, but it's clear that you've made a premeditated effort to get beyond their intent and adversely influence the race result.

And in both instances the culprit got done. Even the guy in the red car. So Ferrari International Assistance my ass.



Interesting. Being an average fan of F1, I had no idea such a rule existed.

In my mind, the rules are too complicated and too numerous to know. It's very easy, now, to see how many people would be upset about what happened and judge it to be a pro-Ferrari move.

All the more cause to clarify and broadcast such things for the public.



after what happened last year McLaren should expect to be in the spotlight on every single corner of every single race. they should expect to get the harshest possible penalty for the minutest of mistakes, in every single corner of every single race. and this is what they get.

[donskar]

I want to avoid commenting, but I can't refrain.

McLaren has earned the FIA's suspicion. McLaren focuses a spotlight on themselves and they invite close scrutiny. Why?

Whether you believe last year's "Stepneygate" was fair or not, McLaren was found guilty, they admitted guilt, they apologized, and they paid the price. They marked themselves as a team worthy of suspicion.

Ferrari tries to gain every advantage possible, by any means. So does McLaren. McLaren and Ferrari both use every political/dirty trick they can think of to gain advantage.

McLaren has been less effective than Ferrari at playing politics (Enzo could make Machiavelli blush), so they will get away with less and will pay a greater penalty when caught.