2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

[XRayF1]

Observing the obvious, RB is always very strong at the end of the season, while lacking (relatively speaking) at the beginning.

But with your postulate they should be stronger at the beginning as well, shouldn't they?
Finishing strong in the end, means having a strong basis for the new car ... right?

To my mind, RB is not developing better or faster towards the end of the season, but the others already stopped their (major) developments and started investing in the new car already.
Because if you look at recent years, RB was always catching up after Summer break considerably.

Which ... I don't know, seems to indicate something fundamentally wrong in their design schedule?
Why do you push for a better car at the end of the season, when you loose more points at the beginning of the next thus already taking yourself out of the both drivers and constructors by Summer break?

If so, why don't they adapt their time plans?

But they bring updates every race. I see a relentless pursuit of downforce&efficiency.

I don’t buy this 2020 story. 8 races in, you must improve now to be better next year.

Exactly Sieper. Developing next year's car is not how Newey works. He never moves on until the problems are totally addressed. My guess is they're doing a POU of their own and going to sort out their problems in a big hit. This will coincide with a newer spec motor and then they'll finish off the season strongly like last year.

[gokarter]

Marti_EF3 wrote: ↑25 Jun 2019, 13:22
Race pace

https://soymotor.com/sites/default/file ... itmo_0.png

Stint 1

https://soymotor.com/sites/default/file ... o/t1_4.png

Stint 2

https://soymotor.com/sites/default/file ... o/t2_2.png
Wow, i could not believe Gasly pace, dunno whether his car setup is really wrong or he is not confident in the car at all.

I think you can see clearly kyatt race pace is decent , even with all that traffic he had , he manage to get good race pace. if only he qualified further up , he could have got some good points ahead of gasly. time for change for redbull. bring on kyatt and try him out. for me it resembles something similar to renault with hulk and palmer. hulk was made to look an amazing driver with palmer's poor showing

[rogazilla]

...
Finishing strong in the end, means having a strong basis for the new car ... right?
...
...
If so, why don't they adapt their time plans?

Can't speak of years past but 2018 to 2019 has a significant rule change which means a redesign from last year's car and thus reset at the beginning of the season. It is not a continuous development to build on the success of last year's car. That may be the reason of going backward because they are trying to work off the success of last years car and the front wing simply does not work with the concept?

[loner]

These engines are more about efficiency rather than power. It is almost certainly that Honda does not have the same power like Mercedes or Ferrari. I am saying "almost" because we cannot know for sure until the instability of the chassis is fixed and they run with normal downforce like the others. Also, the speed of Toro Rosso on straights is suspicious. So, I think that we have to drop this rant about less powerful engine and see what actually happens on the track. One way or another Red Bull with not perfect chassis have the same pace like Ferrari, and I don't think that speaks about weak PU.

it may be not perfect chassis but it still rated second after the Mercs.
its an integration process Honda PU has different dimensions than the Renault one, 8 races is a short period to fully integrate the new PU but be sure they will get there.. i realize now there is a reason GAS will see the end of this season in RBR.
the PU has a deficit its up to you not to believe Honda words.
Tanabe now talking about reaching a high-efficiency turbocharger and want to share that benefit to the ICE side and also the MGU-H with subsequent upgrades.
will this bear fruits and make them match other manufacturers performance thats yet to be seen.. all i know that they are already late and they need to ditch their current strategy to catch up very late into the season.

[shingles]

These engines are more about efficiency rather than power. It is almost certainly that Honda does not have the same power like Mercedes or Ferrari. I am saying "almost" because we cannot know for sure until the instability of the chassis is fixed and they run with normal downforce like the others. Also, the speed of Toro Rosso on straights is suspicious. So, I think that we have to drop this rant about less powerful engine and see what actually happens on the track. One way or another Red Bull with not perfect chassis have the same pace like Ferrari, and I don't think that speaks about weak PU.

it may be not perfect chassis but it still rated second after the Mercs.
its an integration process Honda PU has different dimensions than the Renault one, 8 races is a short period to fully integrate the new PU but be sure they will get there.. i realize now there is a reason GAS will see the end of this season in RBR.
the PU has a deficit its up to you not to believe Honda words.
Tanabe now talking about reaching a high-efficiency turbocharger and want to share that benefit to the ICE side and also the MGU-H with subsequent upgrades.
will this bear fruits and make them match other manufacturers performance thats yet to be seen.. all i know that they are already late and they need to ditch their current strategy to catch up very late into the season.

Late according to who?
RBR kept saying Honda has been delivering as promised. But you want to say they are late. Late for what? It’s not like they were going to compete for the championship.

[rogazilla]

...
Tanabe now talking about reaching a high-efficiency turbocharger and want to share that benefit to the ICE side and also the MGU-H with subsequent upgrades.
will this bear fruits and make them match other manufacturers performance thats yet to be seen.. all i know that they are already late and they need to ditch their current strategy to catch up very late into the season.

That makes no sense at all. The only update that brought forward 'early was the reliability spec 2 update'. The spec 3 released is a step to introduce the parts they have been working on with IHI and Honda Jet divison and along other parts that associate with that. An efficiency update. They have always said the next one will be the power update. As far as I know there has not been any promise broken from the Honda side. If going by schedule, they are early in introducing upgrade compare to conventional thinking of upgrade every 7/8 races.

on another note:
How many years past now and people are still arguing over the peak power and the efficiency of the engine formula which allows for more power through a lap. I said Honda has learned their lesson and are applying the correct method of development by going for efficiency and reliability first since that's a race distance gain and not a single lap gain. You can build on your Q mode after that. I prefer this route over the glory peak power in qualifying and then become sitting duck during the race.

[Sieper]

Observing the obvious, RB is always very strong at the end of the season, while lacking (relatively speaking) at the beginning.

But with your postulate they should be stronger at the beginning as well, shouldn't they?
Finishing strong in the end, means having a strong basis for the new car ... right?

To my mind, RB is not developing better or faster towards the end of the season, but the others already stopped their (major) developments and started investing in the new car already.
Because if you look at recent years, RB was always catching up after Summer break considerably.

Which ... I don't know, seems to indicate something fundamentally wrong in their design schedule?
Why do you push for a better car at the end of the season, when you loose more points at the beginning of the next thus already taking yourself out of the both drivers and constructors by Summer break?

If so, why don't they adapt their time plans?

But they bring updates every race. I see a relentless pursuit of downforce&efficiency.

I don’t buy this 2020 story. 8 races in, you must improve now to be better next year.

Exactly Sieper. Developing next year's car is not how Newey works. He never moves on until the problems are totally addressed. My guess is they're doing a POU of their own and going to sort out their problems in a big hit. This will coincide with a newer spec motor and then they'll finish off the season strongly like last year.

I think there is an error in your line of thought (as well as perhaps also some truth) For the truth part (imho right, just (relatively uninformed line of) thoughts by me) maybe RBR is perhaps always spending too much effort on "last (this) years car" and comfortably working to improve it in the later stages of the season whilst the others might be hard at work for their newer car and offering up (slightly more) the capacity of this year. There might be some truth to that. maybe RBR is indeed feeling to comfy there.

But then you also state they are always bad in the beginning and then improve. Here I don't agree. They were "bad" in 2017 and 2019 in the begin of the season. 2018 they were not so bad at all. 17 and 19 both started with relatively (and very) big regulation changes. So in 2018 all the improvement build up in 17 did certainly help them start better.

Every time a regulation change hits it is RBR that suffers the most as so far they have always had the least HP to work with (from the top 3 teams) so their chassis cannot just match, it must truly exceed the competition otherwise we will call it bad. That is just hard to do. Especially when you cannot built on on last year and perhaps even more importantly, when it almost seems if regulation changes were really aimed at providing the silver team with the needed development path (this year). But that is again just me talking. I feel that way strongly (tires and FW)

[loner]

shingles , rogazilla
e.g. if figure C don't start the season on equal power as figure A and B and only catch up after 7 months then its LATE.

on another note:
How many years past now and people are still arguing over the peak power and the efficiency of the engine formula which allows for more power through a lap. I said Honda has learned their lesson and are applying the correct method of development by going for efficiency and reliability first since that's a race distance gain and not a single lap gain. You can build on your Q mode after that. I prefer this route over the glory peak power in qualifying and then become sitting duck during the race.

yeah but how about have both peak power and race efficiency just like the Mercs and Ferrari PU.

[HPD]

I’m told by a reliable source that while there is a high level of satisfaction with Honda’s work, the performance of the RB15 itself is leaving something to be desired, and that some factions would rather see Adrian Newey wholly engaged on developing it rather than also splitting his time and talent working on Aston Martin’s exciting new Le Mans hypercar project.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... XRCAD.html

Whatever the problem of the RB15 it seems difficult to solve it.. Red Bull detected the problem in the first races

[rogazilla]

shingles , rogazilla
e.g. if figure C don't start the season on equal power as figure A and B and only catch up after 7 months then its LATE.

...

yeah but how about have both peak power and race efficiency just like the Mercs and Ferrari PU.

That's not how development works. You have your development plan and timeline to develop the tech and innovate your pu.

Most people don't think Ferrari is as efficient as Merc, just like most people don't think Merc is as powerful as Ferrari. They have both been developing about the same amount of time and throw in huge sum of money. By your idea, why aren't they equal?! It just doesn't work that way.

[Ground Effect]

I’m told by a reliable source that while there is a high level of satisfaction with Honda’s work, the performance of the RB15 itself is leaving something to be desired, and that some factions would rather see Adrian Newey wholly engaged on developing it rather than also splitting his time and talent working on Aston Martin’s exciting new Le Mans hypercar project.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... XRCAD.html

Whatever the problem of the RB15 it seems difficult to solve it.. Red Bull detected the problem in the first races

I thought Newey was already fully focused on the RB15? If he's not, then there lies the problem. That was a big mistake by Red Bull. This project with Honda should have been given priority...

[Slo Poke]

Meantime, I’ll bet Mr. Newey is busy figuring out how to incorporate a little bit of Citroen DS type suspension onto the front of Max’s car!

So..Again you are right on the track ahead of us...Can you explain a little bit more what you have in mind with this Citroen DS suspension and Newey ?

Hello again IvailoStefanovBG: I’ll do my best!
The video presently in vogue is a rather unhelpful piece of footage in that it depicts, if you look very carefully, two different cars doing much the same thing component-wise. Admittedly the grey car’s suspension does appear to lift, or rise more than the red car’s components but that will be down to braking from a relatively high speed into a very slow corner. At that point the automated engine mode facility will have downgraded itself to at least engine race mode two that is packed full of all the relevant chassis and torque settings that best suit that section of track. Now purely with the braking aspect in mind and the caster angle set for that corner the driver releases the brakes whilst holding down a ‘hold magic’ button. Doing that by now, for this category of corner, has to be an obligation; not-so-much for more fluent corners. Either way, doing so not only freezes the kingpin inclination but also appears now to invoke a retarder type system on suspension travel, to bias frontal car weight onto the outer positively cambered wheel tyre.
The component under discussion elsewhere that resembles a proximal phalange, exists purely to relieve flexation and torsional stress away from the main push rod to simply allow the wheel tyre assembly to orbit around the phalange’s upper pivot point with far less outside interference.
I hope that answers your query concerning the nod to Citreon’s DS model suspension!
I once read a piece written by a DS owner/driver about how proud he was about being able to driver his car for hundreds of miles without once ever touching the steering wheel! Isn’t that marvellous?
PS.
Mr. Newey will like his new toy even more when he finally discovers what a nifty little enhancement Merc’ have in their differential is.

[XRayF1]

I think there is an error in your line of thought (as well as perhaps also some truth) For the truth part (imho right, just (relatively uninformed line of) thoughts by me) maybe RBR is perhaps always spending too much effort on "last (this) years car" and comfortably working to improve it in the later stages of the season whilst the others might be hard at work for their newer car and offering up (slightly more) the capacity of this year. There might be some truth to that. maybe RBR is indeed feeling to comfy there.

But then you also state they are always bad in the beginning and then improve. Here I don't agree. They were "bad" in 2017 and 2019 in the begin of the season. 2018 they were not so bad at all. 17 and 19 both started with relatively (and very) big regulation changes. So in 2018 all the improvement build up in 17 did certainly help them start better.

Every time a regulation change hits it is RBR that suffers the most as so far they have always had the least HP to work with (from the top 3 teams) so their chassis cannot just match, it must truly exceed the competition otherwise we will call it bad. That is just hard to do. Especially when you cannot built on on last year and perhaps even more importantly, when it almost seems if regulation changes were really aimed at providing the silver team with the needed development path (this year). But that is again just me talking. I feel that way strongly (tires and FW)

Good reply, thank you!

However, I never said they were 'bad', I mentioned 'lacking (relatively speaking)' ... to other teams at the beginning of a season. When the best competitor would be at a level, say 100, why is RB always 1 behind him?

My main question thus remains, why are they relative to the others not as good as them at the start, when they have supposedly the best aero team in the circus? And the best car at the end of any last season?

Mixing rule changes with Newey's genius should actually provide them with many golden opportunities to actually be better then the others, shouldn't it?

[Raleigh]

Aero changes work against the platform Red Bull has built up over past seasons, specifically their excellent airflow control from the front wing back which allowed a short wheelbase and high rake approach.

Plus, Adrian's attention is split because he is bored of the restrictive F1 regulations and wants to work on other projects like the Valkyrie. Red Bull still seems to be a very one-man operation as far as technical direction goes (unlike Mercedes), whenever Newey is less involved performance on track suffers.

[rogazilla]

...
Mixing rule changes with Newey's genius should actually provide them with many golden opportunities to actually be better then the others, shouldn't it?

Except Newey isn’t a constant in recent years. He took a step back and only came back when the car wasn’t performing. Supposedly he lost interest again and only came back because of the Honda engine providing him new challenges.