2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

[dans79]

Still no one is able to cite the sporting regulations. Its a pdf freely available. Might have to take a crack at it.

Every revision of the sporting and technical regulations as well as race weekend rulings and technical reports if a available on the FIA website, Surely someone as persistent as yourself should be able to find them!

[jz11]

...
If Lec had tried harder to avoid a contact, Max would've pushed him out of the road mere meters later. If you keep on watching it's clear he leaves no space for another car whatsoever on the outside. As things stand, he just barged into him and threw him out.
...

That's where I disagree with many about leaving space. If you are on the racing line, why do you have to concede the space and compromise your drive? It is different from a dive bomb where there is no hope to get back on the racing line but to bump the other driver.

but this is EXACTLY what happened, people defending Maxes move say he couldn't turn in more to leave space on the outside, and he absolutely had to take that line because he had too much speed, that is why this ruling is so controversial (because if they give penalty to Max, then it puts basically every next dive bomb under investigation), if this was mid pack fight, I'm pretty sure there would be a penalty for the inside driver, but considering previous race, and who (not just Max, but Honda) was involved here, and the consequences, they decided to rule it this way

fine by me, I don't need to like it, I don't need to agree with the ones supporting this ruling, this is a forum for discussions and I'm simply voicing my opinion about it

there simply was no way out of this that would satisfy everyone

[3jawchuck]

5 second penalty for Vettel, for forcing another driver off the track.

Source?

[rogazilla]

...
Simple.. there is a rule saying if a car is alongside, you have to leave one car space. He would get penalized if last week didn't happen.

I don't think that's what the rule says. Welcome people to chime in but the one I found is this :Article 20.3 reads: "More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off‐line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner."

This is on the defender after making a move to block must leave enough room when attempting to move back towards racing line. In my view, Lec was off the racing line and was trying to move back towards the racing line. Where Max is the attacker who is on the racing line.

This is old from 2014 but look at the portion on going around outside:
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08 ... of-racing/

[rogazilla]

...
but this is EXACTLY what happened, people defending Maxes move say he couldn't turn in more to leave space on the outside, and he absolutely had to take that line because he had too much speed, that is why this ruling is so controversial (because if they give penalty to Max, then it puts basically every next dive bomb under investigation), if this was mid pack fight, I'm pretty sure there would be a penalty for the inside driver, but considering previous race, and who (not just Max, but Honda) was involved here, and the consequences, they decided to rule it this way

fine by me, I don't need to like it, I don't need to agree with the ones supporting this ruling, this is a forum for discussions and I'm simply voicing my opinion about it

there simply was no way out of this that would satisfy everyone

I agree Max had done many dive bomb and uses the other car to 'help' turn in and he should have been penalized for those incidents. Just on the situation this weekend, it is just racing for me and not a dive bomb.

[dans79]

people.....

If you want to read the regulations, you get them here.
https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/110

if you want to read stewards or other technical documents from a given race weekend go here.
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... ampionship
1) scroll down and click on the text name of the race.
2) when the page loads click "show menu" and chose the appropriate category.

[Just_a_fan]

Simple.. there is a rule saying if a car is alongside, you have to leave one car space.

No, there isn't.

[rogazilla]

people.....

If you want to read the regulations, you get them here.
https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/110

if you want to read stewards or other technical documents from a given race weekend go here.
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... ampionship
1) scroll down and click on the text name of the race.
2) when the page loads click "show menu" and chose the appropriate category.

Thank you! Found the regulation here (Appendix L, Chapter IV Article 2 of the FIA
International Sporting Code):

b) Overtaking, according to the
circumstances, may be carried out on either
the right or the left.
A driver may not deliberately leave the track
without justifiable reason.
More than one change of direction to defend
a position is not permitted.
Any driver moving back towards the racing
line, having earlier defended his position offline, should leave at least one car width
between his own car and the edge of the
track on the approach to the corner.
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other
drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car
beyond the edge of the track or any other
abnormal change of direction, are strictly
prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of
any of the above offences will be reported to
the Stewards.

-------------------------------------
The way I am reading this, it does not say you must leave one car width of all time. Only after defended position offline and trying to come back to racing line. The second part is the actual controversial part whether there is deliberate movement of crowding. I believe this should penalize dive bomb and that put it in perspective of Vettle's penalty. Look at the video posted above and I still don't think in THIS incident Max did a dive bomb. He simply driving on the racing line after apex and did not leave any room.

[diffuser]

...
but this is EXACTLY what happened, people defending Maxes move say he couldn't turn in more to leave space on the outside, and he absolutely had to take that line because he had too much speed, that is why this ruling is so controversial (because if they give penalty to Max, then it puts basically every next dive bomb under investigation), if this was mid pack fight, I'm pretty sure there would be a penalty for the inside driver, but considering previous race, and who (not just Max, but Honda) was involved here, and the consequences, they decided to rule it this way

fine by me, I don't need to like it, I don't need to agree with the ones supporting this ruling, this is a forum for discussions and I'm simply voicing my opinion about it

there simply was no way out of this that would satisfy everyone

I agree Max had done many dive bomb and uses the other car to 'help' turn in and he should have been penalized for those incidents. Just on the situation this weekend, it is just racing for me and not a dive bomb.

The problem I see is, why would anyone take the outside ever again, when you can stay on the inside and drive the competitor off the road?

[sosic2121]

"However, both car 33 and car 16 proceeded to negotiate the corner alongside each
other but there was clearly insufficient space for both cars to do so. "
Such a shame stewards haven't actually watched the race, otherwise they might have seen there was "sufficient space" just a lap before, when Leclerc showed us some real racing.
Even Max Verstappen might have learned something there.

[rogazilla]

...

The problem I see is, why would anyone take the outside ever again, when you can stay on the inside and drive the competitor off the road?

Base on what I found in the regulation and the way I read it. If the lead car block the inside, to make the apex on the inside you have to brake harder and take the corner slower and have less exit speed. Hence, many after blocking inside will try to move back towards racing line to carry more speed through the apex. The regulation says defender who moved offline to defend must leave 1 car width of space for the attacker when moving back toward racing line. For the attacker after being block on the inside, taking the outside is viable because defender must leave space.

Therefore there is no issue with attacker trying to go around the outside to pass. That's not what happened as Lec was the defender and Max was the attacker.

[dans79]

"However, both car 33 and car 16 proceeded to negotiate the corner alongside each
other but there was clearly insufficient space for both cars to do so. "
Such a shame stewards haven't actually watched the race, otherwise they might have seen there was "sufficient space" just a lap before, when Leclerc showed us some real racing.
Even The dutch brute might have learned something there.

I'm sure the stewards have watched the incident many more times than you, and have vastly more angles, and data to look at as well.

[jz11]

Simple.. there is a rule saying if a car is alongside, you have to leave one car space.

No, there isn't.

Thank you! Found the regulation here (Appendix L, Chapter IV Article 2 of the FIA
International Sporting Code):

b) Overtaking, according to the
circumstances, may be carried out on either
the right or the left.
A driver may not deliberately leave the track
without justifiable reason.
More than one change of direction to defend
a position is not permitted.
Any driver moving back towards the racing
line, having earlier defended his position offline, should leave at least one car width
between his own car and the edge of the
track on the approach to the corner.
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other
drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car
beyond the edge of the track or any other
abnormal change of direction, are strictly
prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of
any of the above offences will be reported to
the Stewards.

I dunno Just_a_fan, can you help me interpret what is written in bold?

I'm just pulling your leg, as I said earlier, I smell politics all over this decision, I don't like or agree with it, just have to live with it

[dans79]

I dunno Just_a_fan, can you help me interpret what is written in bold?

I'm just pulling your leg, as I said earlier, I smell politics all over this decision, I don't like or agree with it, just have to live with it

The part written in bold is about the Defending driver, not the one attempting an overtake.

[ubuysa]

I've refrained from commenting because I'm not a fan of Max at all. I find him an arrogant child with a huge sense of entitlement. That said, even I was impressed with the way he drove in Austria after a truly awful start. I was actually beginning to think he'd finally grown up - until the move on Leclerc. I have no problem with him drifting to the outside of turn 3 and squeezing Leclerc out, any other driver would have done the same. My issue is with him then turning in to Leclerc to hit him. If you watch the video from Max's car you can clearly see him turn in to Leclerc even as Max barely had two wheels on the track. That was pointless, unnecessary and dangerous, and it was typical Max. The child is still a danger to himself and everyone around him, which is a shame because he is a fantastically talented driver.

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