2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

[NathanOlder]

Just out of interest, what determines the racing line through a corner ?

I would say it’s the fastest line through it.
The problem starts when drivers prefer differing lines depending on their style and the car they drive. Which is why you won’t find it official or written down anywhere.

Yeah so when people say things like "he was taking the racing line" its almost meaningless. And by the look of it, Charles was more on his racing line than Max ever was at T3 that lap.

[LM10]

The more I watch the video of Verstappen's overtake on Leclerc, the more I don't understand how that's perfectly legal.

What are the arguments used by the stewards? When is it OK to force someone off track? If you are inside? If you have the racing line? If the nose of your car is in front of the other car? And how was it in case of Max? He was inside obviously, but did he have the racing line? As already pointed out, there is more than one possible racing line and it depends on your driving style and also other factors how you take the corner. It also needs to be told that Max, when doing the overtake, wasn't even on his usual racing line, but much more outside and thus didn't leave Leclerc any space. What's more, at all points of the action Max was never in front of Leclerc, so this argument is invalid as well.

To sum it up:

1. Max was inside
2. Max was not in his usual racing line
3. Max was not in front of Leclerc

From 3 arguments which possibly could have been used when deciding, only one seems to have been the case. So is it enough for future drivers to be inside and they will have a free ticket to force the other car off track? I really don't understand why this move is legal, considering there have been other similar moves in past which were penalized.
F1 seems to have too many and too less rules at the same time. Or the stewards do what they do best: Deciding quite inconsistently.

[ubuysa]

My issue is with him then turning in to Leclerc to hit him. If you watch the video from Max's car you can clearly see him turn in to Leclerc even as Max barely had two wheels on the track. That was pointless, unnecessary and dangerous, and it was typical Max.

Er, which video did you watch? Max keeps right hand lock applied through the whole corner. The lock is unwound a bit as he passes the notional apex, as is normal when taking a corner, but at no point does he "turn in to Leclerc".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABKY6nbKIL4 at 47 seconds, Max is already on the straight and turns left into Leclerc.

[Phil]

A “dive bomb” is when a driver throws it up the inside into an ‘undefended’ corner and overshoots it while also forcing the driver he is passing off the track or coliding.

However if the overtaking driver can take the inside, hit the apex and control his line, it’s a legitimate move. The ‘defending’ driver wanting to avoid this, simply has to drive defensive; e.g. use his “1 move” to defend the inside and force the overtaker to take the longer way and strategically weaker line around the outsids.

If the defending driver is too lazy, blind or useless to do this (Leclerc/Verstappen and Bottas/Verstappen), you cant go complaining about having lost your position after.

Ps: Ricciardo has historically done many moves that have resulted in successful overtakes but are perhaps sometimes borderline of ‘divebombing’ into a corner.

[LM10]

A “dive bomb” is when a driver throws it up the inside into an ‘undefended’ corner and overshoots it while also forcing the driver he is passing off the track or coliding.

However if the overtaking driver can take the inside, hit the apex and control his line, it’s a legitimate move. The ‘defending’ driver wanting to avoid this, simply has to drive defensive; e.g. use his “1 move” to defend the inside and force the overtaker to take the longer way and strategically weaker line around the outsids.

If the defending driver is too lazy, blind or useless to do this (Leclerc/Verstappen and Bottas/Verstappen), you cant go complaining about having lost your position after.

Ps: Ricciardo has historically done many moves that have resulted in successful overtakes but are perhaps sometimes borderline of ‘divebombing’ into a corner.

I deleted "dive bomb" afterwards, because it was none. I wrote "forcing off track". Max didn't hit the apex and was not in front of Leclerc at any time, but still forced him off track.

[Vasconia]

Great race, best in a while, I love this track and it gives always the chance of enjoying a good race.

Still amazed with Max´s performance, he was truly a beast and looked unstoppable. Honda has some power indeed but he was mighty fast. A fully deserved win.

Lecrec did a great job and his defense against Max in his first attack was gold but he left the door open in the next lap so Max could attack him. Great job by Sebastian also, a mistake in the pit destroyed his chances for a well deserved podium.

Another great performance by Carlos and Lando. Carlos did an amazing, I am extremely happy with his perfomance. If the team improves the car the 4th position should be for them.

[izzy]

First of all, thanks to everyone for an actually informative debate.
I came to the thread after the race 100% convinced it would be a 5 sec penalty, an automatic one, applying the "no crowding" and "leave space" parts of the rules.

https://streamable.com/p1bt2

i thought it could go either way, as it was kind of half a Rosberg. That's a great video, shows it perfectly. And a pity afaic as it slightly took the shine off a fantastic drive by Max

[Phil]

I deleted "dive bomb" afterwards, because it was none. I wrote "forcing off track". Max didn't hit the apex and was not in front of Leclerc at any time, but still forced him off track.

The bbc seems to say he was, at the apex. I’m at the pool on holidays now, so cant go and check.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/48821032

On the next lap, Verstappen again got alongside - they were wheel to wheel at the apex, with Verstappen a few centimetres ahead - but this time he ran out to the edge of the track on the exit, and Leclerc was forced into the run-off area so had no chance to try to attack into Turn Four.

Leclerc was sleeping. He could/should have simply defended the inside. He didnt. You cant be caught napping and then come whinging later when you’ve been overtaken.

[NathanOlder]

The door was open beacuase if you go defensive in that corner, you have no chance to defend in to turn 4. See how Max passed Vettel or Gasly on Kimi.

[NathanOlder]

I deleted "dive bomb" afterwards, because it was none. I wrote "forcing off track". Max didn't hit the apex and was not in front of Leclerc at any time, but still forced him off track.

The bbc seems to say he was, at the apex. I’m at the pool on holidays now, so cant go and check.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/48821032

On the next lap, Verstappen again got alongside - they were wheel to wheel at the apex, with Verstappen a few centimetres ahead - but this time he ran out to the edge of the track on the exit, and Leclerc was forced into the run-off area so had no chance to try to attack into Turn Four.

Leclerc was sleeping. He could/should have simply defended the inside. He didnt. You cant be caught napping and then come whinging later when you’ve been overtaken.

Max wasn't at the apex. A good cars width away from it Phil.



And to the bit that says, he should have defended the inside! IT LEAVES YOU A SITTING DUCK IN TO TURN 4 !!!!

[sosic2121]

Rules are too complicated, nobody seems to know them and they don't always get enforced.

Make it simple, they both have to leave space.

Enforce it

Say goodbye to anything but DRS passes on the straight then!

You are absolutely and totally wrong.

What is happening now is killing racing.

[Phil]

Max wasn't at the apex. A good cars width away from it Phil.

http://pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=f58 ... 7e363fdb53

And to the bit that says, he should have defended the inside! IT LEAVES YOU A SITTING DUCK IN TO TURN 4 !!!!

You are arguing under the premise that a brilliant defender can and will stay ahead. That’s not true. Most cars that got overtaken, did, because in the end it was futile to keep them behind. Max was always going to get by anyway.

And thanks for proving my point. Max was that tiny bit ahead and on the inside. No one said you had to touch the apex or anything.

[LM10]

Max wasn't at the apex. A good cars width away from it Phil.

http://pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=f58 ... 7e363fdb53

And to the bit that says, he should have defended the inside! IT LEAVES YOU A SITTING DUCK IN TO TURN 4 !!!!

You are arguing under the premise that a brilliant defender can and will stay ahead. That’s not true. Most cars that got overtaken, did, because in the end it was futile to keep them behind. Max was always going to get by anyway.

And thanks for proving my point. Max was that tiny bit ahead and on the inside. No one said you had to touch the apex or anything.

From the picture, it looks like same height at best.

[Big Tea]

Don't mean to interrupt. I arrive with intel. Just arrived in Paris. Place de la Concorde. Catacombes beneath FiA headquarters. I can't say who gained me access since the case is still hot. But lets call him agent V. He is in cahoots with an undercover Finnish operative whom I rendezvoused with. Peering from behind a cup of espresso he slipped me a biometric device along with my disguise: a large handlebar moustache. With any luck I won't be needing it--the rumoured subterranean Ecclestone passageways are indeed real.

Metro riders speak of a cave imp sometimes seen in a particular section of tunnel. I knew this was my in road. I narrowed my search and eventually found a small burrowed hole in the tunnel wall. A collection of tarnished Rolexes lay cast about near it. The caves are small, irregular. Occasionally an ill fitting suit can be found on the ground, some crude drawings on the walls. One seemed to depict a water sprinkler.

In the archives now. Three levels down. Terrible cell reception--fewer bars than a night out in Dubai. Dark, musty down here. l've located the documents though. For the good of the forum. They're here. The driver's codices of conduct. Often rumored, but never seen. Finally.

They're dusty. Everything's dusty down here. Looks like they haven't been touched for a while. I would say for at least two weeks.

Going over them now. My French isn't so good so bear with me. Here's what I have so far.

Appx. L Chapter IV Article 2
b) Overtaking, according to the
circumstances, may be carried out on either
the right or the left.
A driver may not deliberately leave the track
without justifiable reason.
More than one change of direction to defend
a position is not permitted.
Any driver moving back towards the racing
line, having earlier defended his position off-
line, should leave at least one car width
between his own car and the edge of the
track on the approach to the corner.
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other
drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car
beyond the edge of the track or any other
abnormal change of direction, are strictly
prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of
any of the above offences will be reported to
the Stewards

Let me know if there's anything else I should look for. I can't promise to stay much longer. Hear footsteps approaching.

Somewhere near it, or even added as an addendum to that doc. there will be a slip of paper marked 'top secret' eyes only' etc stating that at the discretion of a FIA representative the penalty need not be introduced if the offender is ... (insert anti-hero here).

There must be a stack of them somewhere as they seem to be used most weeks with various names and teams filled in.

[NathanOlder]

Yea I agree LM10

I just find it crazy how now in F1 you can get alongside someone dead level and simply push them off the track.

The cleaner drivers will suffer badly now.