2018-2020 Tyres Thread

[Sevach]

What Pirelli could do to help teams better control their tires is stop setting ridiculously high minimum pressures.

No wonder teams have trouble making the tires work when the min pressure is 23.5.

Why is it Pirelli who decide how much the pressures should be? Why can't all teams choose for themselves how they like the pressures to be?

As izzy pointed out it's because teams go absolutely crazy if left to their own devices.
And them they blame Pirelli when things go wrong...
Things i can remember, running tires on the wrong side, running way more camber than recommended, and running extreme low pressures for way longer than the tire was recommended for.

This last one, Spa 2015, led to a tire failure for Vettel and Ferrari instead of accepting the findings(pretty reasonable ones imo), "this type of tire was suppoused to last 20 laps and you did 35", "you were also running well below recommended pressures", made a huge fuzz... on the next race Pirelli started checking for minimum pressures.

So at least for Ferrari there's an element of "they brought this on themselves".

Still the pressures they recommend seem way too high for me... there's room for not playing that safe.

[trinidefender]

What Pirelli could do to help teams better control their tires is stop setting ridiculously high minimum pressures.

No wonder teams have trouble making the tires work when the min pressure is 23.5.

Why is it Pirelli who decide how much the pressures should be? Why can't all teams choose for themselves how they like the pressures to be?

As izzy pointed out it's because teams go absolutely crazy if left to their own devices.
And them they blame Pirelli when things go wrong...
Things i can remember, running tires on the wrong side, running way more camber than recommended, and running extreme low pressures for way longer than the tire was recommended for.

This last one, Spa 2015, led to a tire failure for Vettel and Ferrari instead of accepting the findings(pretty reasonable ones imo), "this type of tire was suppoused to last 20 laps and you did 35", "you were also running well below recommended pressures", made a huge fuzz... on the next race Pirelli started checking for minimum pressures.

So at least for Ferrari there's an element of "they brought this on themselves".

Still the pressures they recommend seem way too high for me... there's room for not playing that safe.

The fact that you had to point this out shows how short F1 fans memories are. This is precisely the reason why the FIA and Liberty shouldn't listen to the fans when it comes to how to make racing better. Collectively we are a bunch of idiots.

Although I do wonder if maybe there is some buffer room that Pirelli can allow a slightly lower pressure for the rest of the season. This should allow the teams who are struggling to put a bit more heat into their tyres while not disadvantaging the teams who got the tyres working properly.

This depends on what safety margins Pirelli has and whether they are willing to allow a lower pressure.

[strad]

The thicker the tread rubber, the more the surface will move relative to the carcass for a given latetal load. That is, it will move laterally more than a thinner rubber will, assuming the rubber is the same compound etc. in both situations.

If there is less movement then it will be heated more slowly.

I think the use of the words "stiff" / "stiffness" is misleading.

Thank You that is much clearer.

[Holm86]

The thicker the tread rubber, the more the surface will move relative to the carcass for a given latetal load. That is, it will move laterally more than a thinner rubber will, assuming the rubber is the same compound etc. in both situations.

If there is less movement then it will be heated more slowly.

I think the use of the words "stiff" / "stiffness" is misleading.

Thank You that is much clearer.

Watch this video, around 2 minutes in, it explains it pretty well

[henry]

The thicker the tread rubber, the more the surface will move relative to the carcass for a given latetal load. That is, it will move laterally more than a thinner rubber will, assuming the rubber is the same compound etc. in both situations.

If there is less movement then it will be heated more slowly.

I think the use of the words "stiff" / "stiffness" is misleading.

Stiffness is a reasonable term. But it needs to be preceded by another adjective.

You describe shear stiffness. This is probably the most significant parameter.

There is also compression stiffness, at right angles to the tyre surface and carcass, and torsion stiffness where, because the tyre speed is different across its surface, the rubber is twisted.

All three would be lower for a deeper tread.

[Just_a_fan]

What Pirelli could do to help teams better control their tires is stop setting ridiculously high minimum pressures.

No wonder teams have trouble making the tires work when the min pressure is 23.5.

Why is it Pirelli who decide how much the pressures should be? Why can't all teams choose for themselves how they like the pressures to be?

Because when the teams do something stupid and the tyres fail, Pirelli gets the blame not the teams. The teams, it seems, can't be trusted.

[strad]

Thanks for the video Holm,, good addition but Just a Fans explanation made it so I understood. A visual is always helpful though.

[Sevach]

Why is it Pirelli who decide how much the pressures should be? Why can't all teams choose for themselves how they like the pressures to be?

As izzy pointed out it's because teams go absolutely crazy if left to their own devices.
And them they blame Pirelli when things go wrong...
Things i can remember, running tires on the wrong side, running way more camber than recommended, and running extreme low pressures for way longer than the tire was recommended for.

This last one, Spa 2015, led to a tire failure for Vettel and Ferrari instead of accepting the findings(pretty reasonable ones imo), "this type of tire was suppoused to last 20 laps and you did 35", "you were also running well below recommended pressures", made a huge fuzz... on the next race Pirelli started checking for minimum pressures.

So at least for Ferrari there's an element of "they brought this on themselves".

Still the pressures they recommend seem way too high for me... there's room for not playing that safe.

The fact that you had to point this out shows how short F1 fans memories are. This is precisely the reason why the FIA and Liberty shouldn't listen to the fans when it comes to how to make racing better. Collectively we are a bunch of idiots.

Although I do wonder if maybe there is some buffer room that Pirelli can allow a slightly lower pressure for the rest of the season. This should allow the teams who are struggling to put a bit more heat into their tyres while not disadvantaging the teams who got the tyres working properly.

This depends on what safety margins Pirelli has and whether they are willing to allow a lower pressure.

That would be ideal IMO.

[Polite]

hi,

the term stiffness is for the stiffer carcass of the pirelli 2019,

not for the less rubber of 0,4mm.

and the stiffer carcass was not approved by the teams but was a safety choice of Pirelli communicated to the teams only in november 2018!

that was said and confirmed also by Marko few weeks ago.

also horner here: "stiffer gauge and profile" (carcass)
https://www.racefans.net/2019/06/08/hor ... -mercedes/

Less rubber = faster heat dissipation
stiffer carcass = more energie needed to heat the tyre

hope this is helpfull. bb

[strad]

Oh dear...Now I'm back to thinking I was right in the first place.

[dans79]

What Pirelli could do to help teams better control their tires is stop setting ridiculously high minimum pressures.

No wonder teams have trouble making the tires work when the min pressure is 23.5.

Why is it Pirelli who decide how much the pressures should be? Why can't all teams choose for themselves how they like the pressures to be?

Because when the teams do something stupid and the tyres fail, Pirelli gets the blame not the teams. The teams, it seems, can't be trusted.

Yep, this is the real issue.

[izzy]

As izzy pointed out it's because teams go absolutely crazy if left to their own devices.

my point really was that it started in 2013, and before that teams could decide for themselves and it wasn't a big issue was it? But in 2013 they produced a tyre with afaik a steel belt and a kevlar sidewall that was completely directional in how it was constructed, Mercedes asked if they could run it backwards and if Pirelli had simply said 'no' they'd probably all have carried on fine. But stupidly they said Yes and half of them fell apart where the two materials were joined. And after that's where the Pirelli limits came in.

But now yes teams push the boundaries but there's an inbuilt natural deterrent anyway, that if they blow a tyre that's the weekend wasted.

And now Pirelli obviously when they're given control want to protect their brand, more than anything, so they'll always go for higher pressures and less camber, when the natural thing we want in F1 is teams going for performance, we just want to be told all about it

[Sevach]

https://twitter.com/AlbertFabrega/statu ... 9848416256

24 psi with just 2,75 camber talk about playing safe...

[zac510]

I guess if the tyre pressure is high, then the sidewall and/or tyre construction must be less stiff (so the tyre pressure is compensating for that).

Did they reduce the stiffness or mass of the tyre construction to increase the temperature working range?

[godlameroso]

The figures given by Pirelli at the start of the season were not accurate. The C1 tire is basically the 2017 soft tire, or 2018 medium. Every following compound is softer than that, and makes sense considering the 2017 soft could easily do the Hungarian GP with 1 stop. Whereas now a 1 stop is marginal, but faster due to better track position. A 2 stopper becomes a realistic option on some tracks with a more race biased setup.