2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

[RZS10]

It's not as bad as the music in formula e

[izzy]

He was never NOT closing it - have you looked at Max' onboard? He got out of the corner and continued going left without actively reacting to Vettel's move as the pics and gifs i posted previously show:

Well maybe, just maybe, one would aim for the apex in order to defend the inside line?

You can't 'push' someone anywhere who isn't side by side (?)

Not saying there was no space on the left, just that that space would always disappear because of the track layout and Vettel's decision to go for that space was a mistake, especially since it was very clear early on that Max would defend the inside

yes max was choosing his line to defend, not to go straight to the apex on a tangent which would be ridiculous. They can 'push' someone who's going a lot faster but isn't alongside, because they need time and space to slow down. The space was always the space of Max's choosing, not anything to do with the geometry of the track, he was just defending. Here it is:
coming out of Stowe, they both have choice of line. Seb is preparing to go to Max's right:

Now Seb is moving right and Max is beginning to mirror him:

Here's the one we've seen before, where Max consequently has left the space and Seb is heading for it

Now Max has closed off some of the space and Seb is trying to bail, turning right to avoid a wheel-on-wheel mother of accidents. Note that Max hasn't gone all the way across and now he even turns right as well, so at full speed it just looks like Seb drove stupidly into the back of him

[RZS10]

You just keep ignoring how they had different corner exits and that the line they take out of a corner is dictated by the positioning, orientation and speed. Your interpretation of seperate screenshots with a poor camera angle (that makes the track look narrower that it is), doesn't match what you can see in other pictures
Let's compare your screengrabs with this:

1st picture you claim Vettel was preparing to go to the right - Max has just come off the curb (the position is roughly between I and II in my pic)
2nd picture you claim Max was mirroring Vettel in reality the car went there because of the different line he took, you know .. physics (that's at II roughly) Vettel still has enough room and the angle to go to the outside
3rd picture - yea can't disagree there, note however that there's no sudden change in direction on Max' part
4th picture - of course Max hasn't gone completely to the left because he'd completely ruin his approach towards the corner, he doesn't have to cover that space further because it closes up by itself ...and if you look at my picture, at no point was there less than a car's width to his left, Vettel potentially could have even gone for the inside line but would have run out of space and in the end he did actually drive stupidly into the back of Max thanks to a loss of downforce.

[dans79]

coming out of Stowe, they both have choice of line. Seb is preparing to go to Max's right:
https://66.media.tumblr.com/063cd21025c ... 1_1280.png
Now Seb is moving right and Max is beginning to mirror him:

I think you are interpreting this incorrectly, this is how I interpret the issue.


Since Max went off track, he has to turn right to get on the track, and ideally he would go all they way to the right side of the track so he can take the ideal line into the next turn.

Since Max went off track he did not get the power down fast enough, thus Seb started gaining on him at a substantial rate.

Seeing Seb was catching him and was going to try and dive up the inside, Max turns left to make sure their isn't a cars with of gap. This is allowed, and is his "move".

The tricky part is Max can also technically also go back towards the racing line (right) under this rule.

More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.

Max used to go back towards the racing line under breaking and that was why so many drivers used to complain about it, and why a rule temporarily existed to prevent it.

The rule has since been dissolved, and the only thing max could have fallen foul of is the following.

However, manoeuvers liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited. Pushing or other contact resulting in a lasting advantage is strictly prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will be reported to the Stewards.

So really what it all comes down to is if people consider his move back to the right an "abnormal change of direction".

[NathanOlder]

...

https://66.media.tumblr.com/446454e435d ... 1_1280.png

That's a tough sell as a gap as a left hander coming up. How much do you propose Max has to move to get out of the way of Vet carrying as much speed as he was and for both of them to make that corner? How much is this subtle move by Max that's not reflected on the steering? 1/4 of a meter? half a meter? Will that clear VET's move?

remember now though, all Vettel had to do was get on the inside, then run max clean off the track. that's allowed now. so both dont need to make the corner. Just Seb, he can even shive max off the track with some contact too.

[NathanOlder]

Ok I can't believe I am saying this when the Vettel and Verstappen incident was so cut and dry - it's the driver at the back whose sole responsibility is to navigate his machine around the person he intends to overtake. Simple. Done. Dusted. Penalty deserved. Max didn't do anything wrong. We all know wheel to wheel is not Rosberg and or Vettel's strengths. Move on folks.

Now what I would rather talk about is how Hamilton drives his car so that he can make the tires last so well. Thoughts? I mean how does he keep so much speed lap after lap and not kill his tires? I am very curious. Mark Hughes' article referred some about his driving style but hoping the forum members could illuminate more.

Mark Hughes wont know s@@t on how its done. to back that up, it appears Bottas can't do it, and he's in the same team as a guy who can.

I think the question you have asked is impossible for anyone here to answer, amd the only people on the planet who can answer, will never tell.

thats my opinion anyway

[Pyrone89]

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https://66.media.tumblr.com/446454e435d ... 1_1280.png

That's a tough sell as a gap as a left hander coming up. How much do you propose Max has to move to get out of the way of Vet carrying as much speed as he was and for both of them to make that corner? How much is this subtle move by Max that's not reflected on the steering? 1/4 of a meter? half a meter? Will that clear VET's move?

remember now though, all Vettel had to do was get on the inside, then run max clean off the track. that's allowed now. so both dont need to make the corner. Just Seb, he can even shive max off the track with some contact too.

Yes, Leclerc indeed showed that is allowed now as there was not even an investigation when he bumped Max and then pushed him wide beyond the track limits and exiting the track himself doing it.

[Restomaniac]

That's a tough sell as a gap as a left hander coming up. How much do you propose Max has to move to get out of the way of Vet carrying as much speed as he was and for both of them to make that corner? How much is this subtle move by Max that's not reflected on the steering? 1/4 of a meter? half a meter? Will that clear VET's move?

remember now though, all Vettel had to do was get on the inside, then run max clean off the track. that's allowed now. so both dont need to make the corner. Just Seb, he can even shive max off the track with some contact too.

Yes, Leclerc indeed showed that is allowed now as there was not even an investigation when he bumped Max and then pushed him wide beyond the track limits and exiting the track himself doing it.

TBH I’m glad the stewards didn’t even look at it in a way. Consistently good or constantly bad. As long as we get consistency I guess.

[Pyrone89]

remember now though, all Vettel had to do was get on the inside, then run max clean off the track. that's allowed now. so both dont need to make the corner. Just Seb, he can even shive max off the track with some contact too.

Yes, Leclerc indeed showed that is allowed now as there was not even an investigation when he bumped Max and then pushed him wide beyond the track limits and exiting the track himself doing it.

TBH I’m glad the stewards didn’t even look at it in a way. Consistently good or constantly bad. As long as we get consistency I guess.

True

[NathanOlder]

That's a tough sell as a gap as a left hander coming up. How much do you propose Max has to move to get out of the way of Vet carrying as much speed as he was and for both of them to make that corner? How much is this subtle move by Max that's not reflected on the steering? 1/4 of a meter? half a meter? Will that clear VET's move?

remember now though, all Vettel had to do was get on the inside, then run max clean off the track. that's allowed now. so both dont need to make the corner. Just Seb, he can even shive max off the track with some contact too.

Yes, Leclerc indeed showed that is allowed now as there was not even an investigation when he bumped Max and then pushed him wide beyond the track limits and exiting the track himself doing it.

Sorry I missed that bit?

Or are you talking about the part that Max drove in to the side of the Ferrari at Club?

[Pyrone89]

remember now though, all Vettel had to do was get on the inside, then run max clean off the track. that's allowed now. so both dont need to make the corner. Just Seb, he can even shive max off the track with some contact too.

Yes, Leclerc indeed showed that is allowed now as there was not even an investigation when he bumped Max and then pushed him wide beyond the track limits and exiting the track himself doing it.

Sorry I missed that bit?

Or are you talking about the part that Max drove in to the side of the Ferrari at Club?

Re-watch the race. Leclerc went around the outside of Vale and then bumped Max (who was on the racing line) off, then ran Max wide and offtrack but Leclerc also exited the track himself.

When compared with Austria there are two differences:
When Max ran Leclerc wide it was Max who at that moment had the racing line, and Max himself stayed on track when running Leclerc wide in Austria (yes, he ran Leclerc wide)

I think if Leclerc had made the pass this way there would have been an investigation, but since Leclerc himself went offtrack and Max passed him coming up to start finish there was no need for action.

You can debate who steered into who. I can see the argument if someone thinks it was Leclerc actually turning in and bump Max in Austria with Max being the one turning in and bumping Leclerc in GB (or vice versa)

[NathanOlder]

When you have a car fully alongside on the inside, guess what......

you can't take the racing line.

[Pyrone89]

When you have a car fully alongside on the inside, guess what......

you can't take the racing line.

Well that would solve Austria wouldnt it?
I somehow are gettimg the feeling of you wanting to make the argument Leclerc was the good guy in both instances, but that simply does not work because they are so similar and when lookimg actually factually in Leclercs disadvantage as he did not manage to stay on track himself when doing the pushing wide.

[NathanOlder]

in Austria, Leclerc was on the racing line going in to the corner, he then had to leave room at the apex for Max, which he did.

whats your point.

your logic on taking a corner would mean Schumacher was the innocent party at Jerez in 97, and Adelaide in 94.

[Pyrone89]

in Austria, Leclerc was on the racing line going in to the corner, he then had to leave room at the apex for Max, which he did.

whats your point.

your logic on taking a corner would mean Schumacher was the innocent party at Jerez in 97, and Adelaide in 94.

No your logic would mean Jerez 97 (Leclerc in Austria) was not on Schumacher but on Villeneuve