2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

[Sieper]

It was actually the one lap that Max got a little bit held up by Ricciardo at the chicane that Hamilton was that close that he could make his attempt, which was a very nice battle with much respect between both. I thought Hamilton had already gotten Verstappen there (were it not for the marbles he would have).

[ubuysa]

I get it that you're a VER fan, and there is no doubt he is hugely talented and a future world champion, but I do think you're protesting too much. F1 is about the team getting the car over the line first, and today HAM and his team beat VER and his team.

Which of them is the better driver is moot, and neither I nor Mercedes will care as long as the Mercedes team keep getting HAM over the line first.

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[Wynters]

(not the GOAT part which is still Senna or Schumi obviously).

Fangio. There is no argument to this.

Also a good one, true. Especially with so many teams and in a time basically every few races drivers died.
Basically Senna (driver ability but career cut short), Fangio (as mentioned) or Schumacher (not so much stats but what he did with a team that was in shambles mid nineties). Lewis could join that list for me if he goes to a struggling team and get them championships against the odds.

You forget Clark

The 'struggling' team thing is a bit of a tough bar though, isn't it? Is it even possible, especially with today's reliability? Senna didn't win any WDCs away from McLaren and he joined them for the '88 season, when the car won 15 out of 16 races. I'm not sure I see much of a struggle for the team.

Thinking back to Schumacher, he didn't win a WDC until Benetton were very competitive. So competitive, in fact, that they were caught cheating and Schumacher himself was later DSQed twice in that season and had to crash into Hill during the last race to make sure he won (it's been a while so I'm happy to be corrected if I recall incorrectly).

I'm also not sure the Mercedes was dominant in 2013, when Hamilton joined. Didn't they finish over 230 points behind RBR, even though Hamilton won a race with it?
---
We've been lucky enough to have several outstanding drivers, spread across many different eras. Direct comparison is pointless. If you put Fangio in today's Mercedes, I'm not convinced he would win. If you put Schumacher in Fangio's Alfa, I'm equally unconvinced he would be dominant.

I don't know why people feel this need to demand that a driver be declared the 'Greatest of All Time'!!!!!!! or why others insist that some arbitrary achievement is required to qualify. It's entirely subjective. I'm sure as the balance of power shifts in today's F1, that Verstappen will be hailed as the new 'GoAT', just as Hamilton was, just as Vettel was, just as Schumcaher was, just as Senna was, etc, etc, etc. Those people won't be wrong, but they probably won't be right either.

[Pyrone89]

Fangio. There is no argument to this.

Also a good one, true. Especially with so many teams and in a time basically every few races drivers died.
Basically Senna (driver ability but career cut short), Fangio (as mentioned) or Schumacher (not so much stats but what he did with a team that was in shambles mid nineties). Lewis could join that list for me if he goes to a struggling team and get them championships against the odds.

You forget Clark

The 'struggling' team thing is a bit of a tough bar though, isn't it? Is it even possible, especially with today's reliability? Senna didn't win any WDCs away from McLaren and he joined them for the '88 season, when the car won 15 out of 16 races. I'm not sure I see much of a struggle for the team.

Thinking back to Schumacher, he didn't win a WDC until Benetton were very competitive. So competitive, in fact, that they were caught cheating and Schumacher himself was later DSQed twice in that season and had to crash into Hill during the last race to make sure he won (it's been a while so I'm happy to be corrected if I recall incorrectly).

I'm also not sure the Mercedes was dominant in 2013, when Hamilton joined. Didn't they finish over 230 points behind RBR, even though Hamilton won a race with it?
---
We've been lucky enough to have several outstanding drivers, spread across many different eras. Direct comparison is pointless. If you put Fangio in today's Mercedes, I'm not convinced he would win. If you put Schumacher in Fangio's Alfa, I'm equally unconvinced he would be dominant.

I don't know why people feel this need to demand that a driver be declared the 'Greatest of All Time'!!!!!!! or why others insist that some arbitrary achievement is required to qualify. It's entirely subjective. I'm sure as the balance of power shifts in today's F1, that Verstappen will be hailed as the new 'GoAT', just as Hamilton was, just as Vettel was, just as Schumcaher was, just as Senna was, etc, etc, etc. Those people won't be wrong, but they probably won't be right either.

I made the point earlier that at best you can therefore call someone the Greatest of his Generation at best in F1. In other sports such as American Football it is a lot easier as the game has stayed the same and the material they use also is equal and not different (offcourse they use better shoes now and better materials but that is not the defining element and they all use the exact same stuff anyway).

[Zarathustra]

I get it that you're a VER fan, and there is no doubt he is hugely talented and a future world champion, but I do think you're protesting too much. F1 is about the team getting the car over the line first, and today HAM and his team beat VER and his team.

Which of them is the better driver is moot, and neither I nor Mercedes will care as long as the Mercedes team keep getting HAM over the line first.

This is true- but that goes for every team/driver combination.

I think we just need to be positive about the fact that we finally have some ‘real racing’ going on.

It doesn’t matter if you’re a ‘Hamboy’ or a ‘Maxipad’- this ‘little rivalry’ between the two of them will only bring out the best in both of them.

[digitalrurouni]

What a drive from Hamilton really enjoyed the race! hope for such races in the furture

BTW there is a 4 week gap until the next race, what shall we do until them?

Motogp

Sadly a MM borefest show

Rewatching old seasons will do the job, as per tradition.

I really don't understand people in this forum. Y'all are intelligent because F1 is an incredibly technical sport. But then the bickering I am reading in the last few race threads is beyond ridiculous. I usually enjoy reading the thread after the race is over to see if I can pick up things that I may have missed that other members may have picked up but nothing of the sort other than my driver is better than your driver and people responding your driver is better because he has a better car. So incredibly lame.

And the other thing that bugs me is the above comment. It's not up to Marc to slow down or Honda to stop relentless development and the same can be applied to the F1 side of things. It's not Mercedes's job to slow down for the rest of the field. The rest of the field can catch up. The rest of the drivers can step up their game. Max and Honda and Red Bull have been doing just that. So have McLaren and their drivers.

Stop being so whiny and enjoy the damn sports!!!

/rant

[Wynters]

Yes the Red Bull was a faster car in Max's hands, but not in Gasly's.

Qualifying suggests otherwise, I would have thought?

If the guy behind you is ~1 second behind and never gets close enough to force you to take defensive action then that's not a lot of pressure. Hamilton all over Max, forcing him to take inside lines to cover the next corner, to brake later and the car constantly getting partially alongside, a car behind that is clearly able to be pushed harder and closing a gap, that's pressure.

If you have to drive on the limit to keep a faster car out of DRS then that's surely pressure, no? Or, once Hamilton pitted a second time, did Verstappen feel no pressure until the corner Hamilton over took him?

Also, I don't remember Hamilton's car being 'constantly...partially alongside'. It was a 70 lap race, I recall Hamilton being alongside on three laps, including the one he overtook. I'm happy to hear if he was alongside more, but you'll have a hard time convincing me that it was 'constantly'.

[Wynters]

I made the point earlier that at best you can therefore call someone the Greatest of his Generation at best in F1. In other sports such as American Football it is a lot easier as the game has stayed the same and the material they use also is equal and not different (offcourse they use better shoes now and better materials but that is not the defining element and they all use the exact same stuff anyway).

Apologies for missing it. I agree that 'GoHG' is probably the best that could be acclaimed.

[digitalrurouni]

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... garn-2019/

Seems like Mercedes has the faster car. That's quite the advantage especially in such a twisty track like the Hungaroring.

[Just_a_fan]

I'd +1 if this weren't a race thread.

[Just_a_fan]

It doesn’t matter if you’re a ‘Hamboy’ or a ‘Maxipad’- this ‘little rivalry’ between the two of them will only bring out the best in both of them.

It'll probably bring out the worst in some of their respective fans, sadly.

Hopefully not on here, however.

[Bill_Kar]

Motogp

Sadly a MM borefest show

Rewatching old seasons will do the job, as per tradition.

I really don't understand people in this forum. Y'all are intelligent because F1 is an incredibly technical sport. But then the bickering I am reading in the last few race threads is beyond ridiculous. I usually enjoy reading the thread after the race is over to see if I can pick up things that I may have missed that other members may have picked up but nothing of the sort other than my driver is better than your driver and people responding your driver is better because he has a better car. So incredibly lame.

And the other thing that bugs me is the above comment. It's not up to Marc to slow down or Honda to stop relentless development and the same can be applied to the F1 side of things. It's not Mercedes's job to slow down for the rest of the field. The rest of the field can catch up. The rest of the drivers can step up their game. Max and Honda and Red Bull have been doing just that. So have McLaren and their drivers.

Stop being so whiny and enjoy the damn sports!!!

/rant

You misinterpreted my comment, maybe I didn't help with that.

I'm just saying that races are not that exciting due to MM being on another level and Ducati-Yamaha being mediocre (along with their riders). Of course others should step up but they simply can't, too bad for them. Agreed.

I support him but it must be said that you won't talk much about the race when nothing happens. Not just in front, but in Assen all positions were set after lap 2 (apart from Miller-Rins). Yeah, I'm happy he is winning but that's it. Last 4 F1 races had me on the edge of my seat but I also loved spending time until the next one reading analysis/news or rewatching them.

I'm enjoying every motorsport race, but let's be honest. One month won't just pass by watching MM destroying everyone.

[drunkf1fan]

Yes the Red Bull was a faster car in Max's hands, but not in Gasly's.

Qualifying suggests otherwise, I would have thought?


If you have to drive on the limit to keep a faster car out of DRS then that's surely pressure, no? Or, once Hamilton pitted a second time, did Verstappen feel no pressure until the corner Hamilton over took him?

Also, I don't remember Hamilton's car being 'constantly...partially alongside'. It was a 70 lap race, I recall Hamilton being alongside on three laps, including the one he overtook. I'm happy to hear if he was alongside more, but you'll have a hard time convincing me that it was 'constantly'.

On the first part, no, qualifying is qualifying, it's the pace you can achieve in clean air with zero racing. Race pace is... your pace in a race, lap after lap including with traffic. Most drivers have significant differences between qualifying single lap pace and race pace, mixing them up helps no one. Qualifying for the most part completely excludes tire wear, race pace doesn't and it absolutely excludes following closely or being blocked.

Gasly can't pass people, he's timid, weak, slow. If there is a car ahead he brakes early rather than later to try to pass, in dirty air you have less grip and for someone who already badly struggles with grip out of corners, this makes it worse.

As for the other part, I was trying to compare and contrast the two situations, maybe not well enough. Hamilton and Max were not due to strategy and situation within 1 second of each other the whole race, or a whole stint, Sainz was. If Hamilton stayed on the hards and was within a second of Max for 40-50 laps, he would indeed have been getting alongside lap after lap as he attempted the pass, the point was that despite Gasly following Sainz for what, over half the race, he never once threatened to pass. Gasly was within DRS many times, and never came close to passing. Judging by the gap over the line, Gasly was within DRS for probably 15 laps or more. There is little indication that Sainz really had to drive on the limit. In reality the only thing you need in Hungary is a good exit out of the last corner and you can ease off the rest of the lap. Considering Sainz finished what 109 seconds off the lead or so, the pace gap to the lead doesn't seem different to most races, considering the lack of tires going off for him, Gasly, Lando, Kimi, they were at a pace that was comfortable for the tires. We saw zero footage of any of them making mistakes, heavy lock ups, going wide, in fact no evidence any of them was doing anything but cruising and completely unable to pass the guy in front.

Again, in the first stint Gasly was behind Kimi, same distance, never made a move and never passed him. Kimi was similar gap to Lando, never made a move, never looked close to one really, Lando on Sainz, same deal. Second stint, same deal, different order and different order due to the different pitstop times and laps they pitted on.

Gasly has struggled to pass cars in almost every single race this year. His qualifying pace is poor, but even with poor pace in that car it usually means he qualifies relatively high. In almost every race if he's found himself behind slower cars he's gotten completely stuck and at tracks again with drastically easier overtaking than Hungary which is one of the tracks considered extremely difficult to pass and very easy to keep people with a similar or small pace advantage behind.

If Gasly can't pass a Renault at Canada or France, then keeping him behind in Hungary is not impressive in the slightest. If he kept Max behind in hungary, it would have been a miracle but you can see from Canada that while Max started a way back from Gasly, he didn't get stuck and finished miles ahead of him.

[Shrieker]

And people still question wether the W10 is the best car in the last 31 years. This car has 10 out of 12 victories so far

Have you seen the 2004 season...

The '16 W07 won 19 of 21 races. It won 11 of the first 12. The only 2 races the W07 didn't win: Spain (Rosberg and Hamilton took each other out on the first lap) and Malaysia (Hamilton retired from the lead).

That was only 3 years ago. That car was dominant.

At least there was a championship battle. I vaguely recall being bored out of my mind during the 2002 and 2004 seasons.

[NathanOlder]

It was actually the one lap that Max got a little bit held up by Ricciardo at the chicane that Hamilton was that close that he could make his attempt, which was a very nice battle with much respect between both. I thought Hamilton had already gotten Verstappen there (were it not for the marbles he would have).

The part where Ricciardo was in front of them was just at the point where Max made a mistake under pressure. He lost at least half a second in turn 12 alone. He wasnt stuck behind Ricciardo when he did, he was approaching Ricciardo, then lost half a second that let Lewis get right on Max's rear and when they got to the run down the straight, Max having DRS from Ricciardo saved Max's ass at that moment.