2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

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Wynters
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

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I quite like the idea of a late red flag in the deciding race of the championship due to heavy rain. The skies clear, the cars all line up on the grid for the restart. One of the championship fighters finds themselves at the back, caught out by the timing of the flag and damage from earlier in the race. There's only a few laps left. His car is slow. Everyone is on fresh tyres. How does he win?

He floors it as soon as the lights come on, races up between the two rows of stationary cars and is through T1 before the lights go out and the rest of the field starts moving!

He's gambling that the sensor isn't working (or that the 'tolerance' is a little more generous than the FIA let on). And he's right! Perhaps the rain has shorted it out, or perhaps bouncing over a kerb has damaged it but, for whatever reason, the sensor doesn't report the false start.

He goes on to win comfortably and everyone agrees that it's a totally legitimate win! A triumph for the FIA and F1 as a whole!

zeph
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

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Restomaniac wrote:
15 Oct 2019, 10:04
zeph wrote:
15 Oct 2019, 09:15
Restomaniac wrote:
15 Oct 2019, 07:40

By who?
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opin ... ampionship
So that’s classed as debunking now :lol:

Maybe I’ll get a job as a ‘reporter’ then I can post any old crap and it instantly becomes true!
You’re already halfway there.

zeph
zeph
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

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iotar__ wrote:
15 Oct 2019, 11:17
"An error-strewn start by Ferrari that handed Valtteri Bottas victory"
That's F1 "journalism" for ya #-o . Alternative:
- brilliant start by reporter's favourite driver gave Ferrari no chance and a lead against the odds.
- then he kept quicker cars behind through out of this world pace (add quote by Wolff to match the narration)
- and left his team mate who struggled for pace whatever seconds behind on a track he apparently excels at =P~ .
Yeah, I’ll take Mark Hughes’ word over whatever you’ve been scribbling on this forum over the last few years.

foxmulder_ms
foxmulder_ms
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

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RZS10 wrote:
14 Oct 2019, 17:22
It's really interesting how much Bottas benefitted from Vettel's totally not false start, he clearly just went when he saw Vettel move, just compare his start to that of Leclerc and Hamilton - he starts moving one frame after the lights go out
https://i.imgur.com/cpwg3be.gif
haha, good catch. I didn't realize it. He almost jump started too. lol. Definitely did move according to Vettel not the lights. Haha.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

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Yeah so shows a driver moving can influence all the cars around him. Another reason to penalize it.
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deltaecho5
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

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RZS10 wrote:
14 Oct 2019, 14:33
Throwback to the old race start monitoring system thread

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=26569

Back then deltaecho5 claimed the following:
deltaecho5 wrote:
15 Jul 2017, 02:08
How it really works for anyone interested:

The FIA delegate within Race Control analyzing the start of the race utilizes broad view high speed camera images to determine any car leaving the start box before the electronically registered time stamp of the last red light being extinguished.

This information is reviewed at the time of the start both utilizing the S/F passing system and also the DVR of the race start. The time stamp is compared to the camera feed capture time, and the movement is determined via calculation: thus Bottas' .2 sec reaction time.
He hasn't posted since early 2018 but i wonder what his input would be about this not being a false start this time
Hello again - (thanks RZS10 for inviting me back), I saw the quoted info, read briefly and hope my intercession here won't offend or ignite, but I will try to put forth some personal knowledge and allow the members here to determine if it's relevant. I am only speaking to the equipment, data and facilities available, not the decision, outcome or result of any official.

As I've said in the past, the information available to race control is varied, and not necessarily specific for the purpose, but often used to be a conglomerate of data in order to arrive at a decision.

In the past, electronic track sensors, other than for the purpose of associating a transponder on a vehicle passing over a specific loop in the track, were not available for start box movement determination.

As I've briefly read here, and have stated in the past, the detection of certain movement of vehicles from a static position to a moving position is not determined by a specific track sensor.

It was indicated in past posts that there were specific sensors in each box of each vehicle, and my response was and still is that having professional experience with timing loops and their equipment at tracks specific to Formula One, there are no such devices or hardwired facilities at these tracks for each independent start line box.

The determination can and has been made via optical observation, and in addition, could be made via wheel sensor data if the team supplies it, possibly as a result of a protest via the FIA officiates, team representatives or their assigns.

Regarding optical observation: Without flogging the deceased equine, yes, high speed Hdef cameras are available (think 30-40 screens in Race Control) for a visual inspection of movement. Without having personal knowledge of the current rule of operation, it would occur to many that regardless of the intricate mathematical equations used in previous posts to determine centimeter perfect movement, it should be known that the camera systems used are not mounted in a way that would ensure that movement on a miniscule seismic level could not be avoided...thus making hog wash of any computational or photogrammetric study of the image. This would explain why there is a specific mention of an allowance of movement to occur that could be disallowed as camera observation movement without triggering the exclusion of a competitor.

Let's also consider FIA required on-board cameras that are also at the officials disposal. This use of this information is strictly at the behest of the Chief Steward. Whether it is displayed or utilized is not up to any board or team. Period.

Regarding sensor observation: Necessary to the team's control of the vehicle in a competitive manner, I am not aware of (but would be open to the information) any requirement for a rotational sensor on any of the vehicles to determine movement on the grid. If these sensors do exist (and I would be restricted from disclosing that), then the existence of their data at the time of the infraction would be available. However, as those data would in all likelihood be deemed proprietary to the team, I would find it unlikely they would a) turn it over, and b) be required to turn it over, both reasoned that not all teams would necessarily have those sensors readily recording as to the movement of the car at the start.

In any event, if I was a team manager, and I did have such sensors, and they were not mandatory equipment, I would in all likely hood require my engineers to shut them off and have them go dark at any point during competition they could be used against my team.

Before the GPS theory starts: Relying on my personal experience at SAC and USSC, as well as my professional timing experience, no GPS signal available to any personal or commercial enterprise via the US Military, is able to provide centimeter precision, let alone millimeter precision, to any device transmitter or receiver that would allow a conclusion regarding relative movement. GPS signal used at racing tracks by timing and scoring is used specifically for its highly accurate time stamps, (.0001) to synchronize simultaneous decoder use of transponder data for timing purposes. Since vehicle track location does not require measure perfect accuracy, a combination of loop passing prediction and GPS sensors can be used to determine vehicle track location for the television audience.

I often look at the amazing world of Formula One, and I am struck dumb by the amount of technology and money that is spent on things. Then I am reminded that regardless of the technology, regardless of the money, we still do things the same old simple way because they are either more efficient or because they rely on the humans that are involved.

Knowing what past cost versus benefit analysis programs yield, I do not think that expenditures will be made to accommodate "cheating" at the start line, unless and until it becomes so widely prevalent as to occur every race, and by more than one driver. It's just too simple for the others to rat you out, and too simple to check the video.

Considering the teams are spending millions on devices and sensors that are necessary to be competitive, and fight tooth and nail to reduce the cost/weight of things that are required via FIA sanctioning (proprietary transponders, their required redundant counterpart, their wiring looms and their backup electrical systems cost a team six figures alone), it is unlikely that teams care to add yet another piece of equipment that will cost them money/weight and rarely be used, when the current one off infraction is something they can deal with, may not specifically affect their race outcome, and costs them nothing.

If this was a drag race, there would be myriads of required rules and sensors for timing to observe. But since the race consists of more than one lap, personally, the analyst in me would more likely attribute hand made tire anomalies, stomach ingestion, bird strikes, momentary lapses of reason (cheers David), and other human contributions (girlfriend broke up with you), as much more influential factors that would result in .20 second variations of initial lap times than any other factor. When we get around to mandatory enemas to equalize the odd gastric affliction causing a random toot that makes a driver's foot twitch at the start line, count me out of that group required to roll out and maintain those sensors...

That all said, please keep in mind my offering here is not in the defense of, nor in the approval of any act by any driver. I am merely attempting to shed some light as to what officials have at their disposal. What decisions are made by them is not for me ponder. :). Cheers.
⏱ Timekeeper by day, F1 Driver by night (whilst sleeping of course...)

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Zarathustra
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

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Just_a_fan wrote:
15 Oct 2019, 10:51
Zarathustra wrote:
15 Oct 2019, 03:34
Isn’t it a bad thing to keep applying the brakes- when they are hot, while stationary?
It can be with iron brakes as fitted to road cars. You can get pad material transfer (the surface of the pad "glues" itself to the disc and leaves a deposit) that can give a shimmy through the wheel until it's worn off. Also, it can lead to differential cooling and disc warping in extreme cases.

Not sure any of that applies to the carbon brakes used in F1, however, partly because on the grid the brakes aren't "hot", they're actually at the low end of their temperature range.
Often you can see them ‘smoking’ on the grid..

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dans79
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

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Zarathustra wrote:
15 Oct 2019, 17:57
Just_a_fan wrote:
15 Oct 2019, 10:51
Zarathustra wrote:
15 Oct 2019, 03:34
Isn’t it a bad thing to keep applying the brakes- when they are hot, while stationary?
It can be with iron brakes as fitted to road cars. You can get pad material transfer (the surface of the pad "glues" itself to the disc and leaves a deposit) that can give a shimmy through the wheel until it's worn off. Also, it can lead to differential cooling and disc warping in extreme cases.

Not sure any of that applies to the carbon brakes used in F1, however, partly because on the grid the brakes aren't "hot", they're actually at the low end of their temperature range.
Often you can see them ‘smoking’ on the grid..
That isn't the brakes smoking, it's all the CF composites packed in close proximity to the brakes.
Last edited by dans79 on 15 Oct 2019, 19:23, edited 1 time in total.
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strad
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

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My point is there is always going to be some movement
Then why is there not any movement in any other of the races?
If they don't like how long the starter holds them then they need to discuss it with the FIA not jump the start. Seb said quite clearly that he screwed up.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Wass85
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

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Get rid of standing starts and have a safety car start with a catch, when the leading driver makes a break for it overtaking is allowed immediately.

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deltaecho5
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

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Wass85 wrote:
15 Oct 2019, 20:19
Get rid of standing starts and have a safety car start with a catch, when the leading driver makes a break for it overtaking is allowed immediately.
The rules of most other sanctioning bodies...but in that case, there is a conditional start software observation...it registers grid position via computation to S/F loop passing, and detects overtaking prior to the S/F by comparing grid position to the S/F passing at green flag race start.

Or like the old days, we could have the drivers start from the grid wall and have a foot race to the cars... :D
(You were lucky if you had your lap belts fastened by the next lap under scrutiny of the starter)
⏱ Timekeeper by day, F1 Driver by night (whilst sleeping of course...)

Wass85
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

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deltaecho5 wrote:
15 Oct 2019, 20:37
Wass85 wrote:
15 Oct 2019, 20:19
Get rid of standing starts and have a safety car start with a catch, when the leading driver makes a break for it overtaking is allowed immediately.
The rules of most other sanctioning bodies...but in that case, there is a conditional start software observation...it registers grid position via computation to S/F loop passing, and detects overtaking prior to the S/F by comparing grid position to the S/F passing at green flag race start.

Or like the old days, we could have the drivers start from the grid wall and have a foot race to the cars... :D
(You were lucky if you had your lap belts fastened by the next lap under scrutiny of the starter)
I think it would be great allowing overtaking when the lead driver makes a break for it, saying that I don't think I'd enjoy as Hamilton is one of the worst at restarts when in the pack. 😁

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strad
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

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Standing starts is a signature of F1. Back in the day they sometimes creeped a bit because of clutch drag but those clutches and days are long gone.
How about we let them use linelock? Oh yeah cause they would find a way to use it to cheat. Let's see.. Maybe they could prove the oft quoted thing about them being the best drivers in the world.
Their clutch is on the wheel so they only have two pedals they ought to be able to manage two pedals. :wink:
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Wass85
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

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Juzh wrote:
13 Oct 2019, 11:34
Some q3 laps. Gotta say all cars look insane on this track. Bottas taking degner 1 as if he's playing f1 2019. Speeds trough spoon are also ridicioulusly high. Overall I think leclerc was fastest trough there (240 and 175 min speeds), I'll post his run later.

P01 vettel 1.27.064
https://streamable.com/a3tnw
https://streamable.com/a3tnw

P03 bottas 1.27.293
https://streamable.com/b7gh7
https://streamable.com/b7gh7

P04 hamilton 1.27.302
https://streamable.com/i8wsh
https://streamable.com/i8wsh

P05 verstappen 1.27.851
https://streamable.com/lfwa9
https://streamable.com/lfwa9

As said, I'll have some more stuff a bit later on.
I was surprised to see Bottas beat Hamilton around here, watching both laps the pair looked like they just about got everything out of the car.

Hamilton has always taken a poor line through Degner 1, I wonder if that's where he lost laptime relative to Bottas?

Edax
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 11 - 13

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strad wrote:
15 Oct 2019, 20:50
Standing starts is a signature of F1. Back in the day they sometimes creeped a bit because of clutch drag but those clutches and days are long gone.
How about we let them use linelock? Oh yeah cause they would find a way to use it to cheat. Let's see.. Maybe they could prove the oft quoted thing about them being the best drivers in the world.
Their clutch is on the wheel so they only have two pedals they ought to be able to manage two pedals. :wink:
I think the motorcross gate is still the most elegant solution. Move too early and you end up with the handlebars in your nuts.

Building gates on the grid is probably not practical but I am sure we can replicate the effect with a suitable motion sensor coupled to a spring-loaded hammer between their legs :twisted: