deltaecho5 wrote: ↑15 Oct 2019, 17:18
RZS10 wrote: ↑14 Oct 2019, 14:33
Throwback to the old race start monitoring system thread
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=26569
Back then deltaecho5 claimed the following:
deltaecho5 wrote: ↑15 Jul 2017, 02:08
How it really works for anyone interested:
The FIA delegate within Race Control analyzing the start of the race utilizes broad view high speed camera images to determine any car leaving the start box before the
electronically registered time stamp of the last red light being extinguished.
This information is
reviewed at the time of the start both utilizing the S/F passing system and also the DVR of the race start. The time stamp is compared to the camera feed capture time, and the movement is determined via calculation: thus Bottas' .2 sec reaction time.
He hasn't posted since early 2018 but i wonder what his input would be about this not being a false start this time
Hello again - (thanks RZS10 for inviting me back), I saw the quoted info, read briefly and hope my intercession here won't offend or ignite, but I will try to put forth some personal knowledge and allow the members here to determine if it's relevant. I am only speaking to the equipment, data and facilities available,
not the decision, outcome or result of any official.
As I've said in the past, the information available to race control is varied, and not necessarily specific for the purpose, but often used to be a conglomerate of data in order to arrive at a decision.
In the past, electronic track sensors, other than for the purpose of associating a transponder on a vehicle passing over a specific loop in the track, were not available for start box movement determination.
As I've briefly read here, and have stated in the past, the detection of certain movement of vehicles from a static position to a moving position is not determined by a specific track sensor.
It was indicated in past posts that there were specific sensors in each box of each vehicle, and my response was and still is that having professional experience with timing loops and their equipment at tracks specific to Formula One, there are no such devices or hardwired facilities at these tracks for each independent start line box.
The determination can and has been made via optical observation, and in addition, could be made via wheel sensor data
if the team supplies it, possibly as a result of a protest via the FIA officiates, team representatives or their assigns.
Regarding optical observation: Without flogging the deceased equine, yes, high speed Hdef cameras are available (think 30-40 screens in Race Control) for a visual inspection of movement. Without having personal knowledge of the current rule of operation, it would occur to many that regardless of the intricate mathematical equations used in previous posts to determine centimeter perfect movement, it should be known that the camera systems used are
not mounted in a way that would ensure that movement on a miniscule seismic level could not be avoided...thus making hog wash of any computational or photogrammetric study of the image. This would explain why there is a specific mention of an allowance of movement to occur that could be disallowed as camera observation movement without triggering the exclusion of a competitor.
Let's also consider FIA required on-board cameras that are also at the officials disposal. This use of this information is strictly at the behest of the Chief Steward. Whether it is displayed or utilized is not up to any board or team. Period.
Regarding sensor observation: Necessary to the team's control of the vehicle in a competitive manner, I am not aware of (but would be open to the information) any requirement for a rotational sensor on any of the vehicles to determine movement on the grid. If these sensors do exist (and I would be restricted from disclosing that), then the existence of their data at the time of the infraction would be available. However, as those data would in all likelihood be deemed proprietary to the team, I would find it unlikely they would a) turn it over, and b) be required to turn it over, both reasoned that not all teams would necessarily have those sensors readily recording as to the movement of the car at the start.
In any event, if I was a team manager, and I did have such sensors, and they were not mandatory equipment, I would in all likely hood require my engineers to shut them off and have them go dark at any point during competition they could be used against my team.
Before the GPS theory starts: Relying on my personal experience at SAC and USSC, as well as my professional timing experience, no GPS signal available to any personal or commercial enterprise via the US Military, is able to provide centimeter precision, let alone millimeter precision, to any device transmitter or receiver that would allow a conclusion regarding relative
movement. GPS signal used at racing tracks by timing and scoring is used specifically for its highly accurate time stamps, (.0001) to synchronize simultaneous decoder use of transponder data for timing purposes. Since vehicle track location does not require measure perfect accuracy, a combination of loop passing prediction and GPS sensors can be used to determine vehicle track location for the television audience.
I often look at the amazing world of Formula One, and I am struck dumb by the amount of technology and money that is spent on things. Then I am reminded that regardless of the technology, regardless of the money, we still do things the same old simple way because they are either more efficient or because they rely on the humans that are involved.
Knowing what past cost versus benefit analysis programs yield, I do not think that expenditures will be made to accommodate "cheating" at the start line, unless and until it becomes so widely prevalent as to occur every race, and by more than one driver. It's just too simple for the others to rat you out, and too simple to check the video.
Considering the teams are spending millions on devices and sensors that are necessary to be competitive, and fight tooth and nail to reduce the cost/weight of things that are required via FIA sanctioning (proprietary transponders, their required redundant counterpart, their wiring looms and their backup electrical systems cost a team six figures alone), it is unlikely that teams care to add yet another piece of equipment that will cost them money/weight and rarely be used, when the current one off infraction is something they can deal with, may not specifically affect their race outcome, and costs them nothing.
If this was a drag race, there would be myriads of required rules and sensors for timing to observe. But since the race consists of more than one lap, personally, the analyst in me would more likely attribute hand made tire anomalies, stomach ingestion, bird strikes, momentary lapses of reason (cheers David), and other human contributions (girlfriend broke up with you), as much more influential factors that would result in .20 second variations of initial lap times than any other factor. When we get around to mandatory enemas to equalize the odd gastric affliction causing a random toot that makes a driver's foot twitch at the start line, count me out of that group required to roll out and maintain those sensors...
That all said, please keep in mind my offering here is not in the defense of, nor in the approval of any act by any driver. I am merely attempting to shed some light as to what officials have at their disposal.
What decisions are made by them is not for me ponder.
. Cheers.
