Possible limits, tricks and cheats of the flow sensors?

[Sierra117]

According to a report in AMUS the second sensor will run at a secret frequency and will be randomly allocated. Suggests they are trying to defeat an exploit such as @mudflap suggested.

I can't imagine that being secret to the manufacturers for more than an hour they'll brute force that to hell and find out the frequency.

Probably better if they do variable frequency so that is always a who knows situation. Although as i type this i already figured out how to get around that too lel.

[nzjrs]

According to a report in AMUS the second sensor will run at a secret frequency and will be randomly allocated. Suggests they are trying to defeat an exploit such as @mudflap suggested.

I can't imagine that being secret to the manufacturers for more than an hour they'll brute force that to hell and find out the frequency.

Probably better if they do variable frequency so that is always a who knows situation. Although as i type this i already figured out how to get around that too lel.

I had previously read that they give the second sensors out on the Friday and take them back after the race, which might reduce the opportunity to reverse engineer them.

[nmoleiro]

I would like to point out that although the ECU is standard across all teams the software they run is certainly not.

Best regards and Merry Christmas!

[saviour stivala]

The software they use have to be approved by the FIA.

iL-Milied Hieni Lil-Kullhad.

[gruntguru]

There is no limit on the flow rating of individual injectors ie it would be OK for each injector to flow 200 kg/hr (1200 kg,hr for all 6).

You was making a point and I was making another, the differences are a matter of interpretation. In my answer I explained/claryfied myself. “I said that “The ‘injectors’ are not ‘permitted by the rules’ to flow more than 100 kg/h. And also not permitted under 10500 RPM to flow more than Q (KG/H) = 0.009 (RPM) 5.5. ‘injector’ means one injector, while ‘injectors’ means any number that are being used. The ‘injectors’ used, although as most parts of the fuel system have to be approved by the FIA, (individually), as all the parts of the fuel system, starting from the fuel tank itself, are capable of delevering/flowing much more fuel than the rules permit. Nobody is going to design and or use any part of the fuel system that can delliver/flow less than what is permitted. The injectors flow is controlled by SECU. The software is common to all engines, but indevidual tuning.calibrations are permitted withen the rules. So finally the ‘injectors’ are not permitted by the rules to flow more than the maximum that is permitted.

Oh so the flow is not permitted to exceed 100 kg/hr? Don't you think that is blatantly obvious?

The more subtle point here is that even at 10,500 rpm and full load the instantaneous flow rate is stepping up and down significantly and for a large percentage of the time it is much higher than 100 kg/hr. This is not a violation of the rules provided the flow also spends a large percentage of the time below 100 kg/hr such that the average flow rate is 100 kg/hr or less. Provided also the cycle time from high flow to low flow is very small - of the order of one engine revolution or less.

[saviour stivala]

According to the rules, at least the way I read them the fuel flow can be/stay bellow 100 kg/h as much as they like. But go above 100 kg/h by the tinest ammount including the shortest time and the car’s time will be discualified. We have seen that happening in the USA. (car disqualfied for only going over the 100 kg/h flow for only a small part of the first lap).

[dans79]

According to the rules, at least the way I read them the fuel flow can be/stay bellow 100 kg/h as much as they like. But go above 100 kg/h by the tinest ammount including the shortest time and the car’s time will be discualified. We have seen that happening in the USA. (car disqualfied for only going over the 100 kg/h flow for only a small part of the first lap).

############ and read what he actually said. He said a revolution and that would not be suprising at all.

Just like the jump start sensors so many like to complain about, the fia will have a tolerence/allowance for the flow rate and it will be a +-. Not to mention time will also be a component.

[MarcJ]

There is no limit on the flow rating of individual injectors ie it would be OK for each injector to flow 200 kg/hr (1200 kg,hr for all 6).

This was the point I was trying to make.

You was making a point and I was making another, the differences are a matter of interpretation. In my answer I explained/claryfied myself. “I said that “The ‘injectors’ are not ‘permitted by the rules’ to flow more than 100 kg/h. And also not permitted under 10500 RPM to flow more than Q (KG/H) = 0.009 (RPM) 5.5. ‘injector’ means one injector, while ‘injectors’ means any number that are being used. The ‘injectors’ used, although as most parts of the fuel system have to be approved by the FIA, (individually), as all the parts of the fuel system, starting from the fuel tank itself, are capable of delevering/flowing much more fuel than the rules permit. Nobody is going to design and or use any part of the fuel system that can delliver/flow less than what is permitted. The injectors flow is controlled by SECU. The software is common to all engines, but indevidual tuning.calibrations are permitted withen the rules. So finally the ‘injectors’ are not permitted by the rules to flow more than the maximum that is permitted.

Dealing with the pressure waves in the high pressure fuel lines or indeed taking advantage of these pressure waves, the penultimate injection will effect the fuel mass delivered in the final injection per engine cycle per cylinder much like the fluid flow of air does in the intake system, these are engineering issues of the high pressure fuel system they are contending with, how much this in reality effects mass flow and how accurate the tools are at modelling this I am not sure of.

[gruntguru]

According to the rules, at least the way I read them the fuel flow can be/stay bellow 100 kg/h as much as they like. But go above 100 kg/h by the tinest ammount including the shortest time and the car’s time will be discualified. We have seen that happening in the USA. (car disqualfied for only going over the 100 kg/h flow for only a small part of the first lap).

Sorry SS but if you think about it for a few seconds you will realise it is not really feasible to avoid the scenario I have described using injectors that switch on and off.

The only way it would be remotely possible would be for each injector to have a flow rate of 100 kg/hr and at full load there would ALWAYS be one and only one injector delivering fuel. Things like multiple pulsing of an injector (which is permitted in the rules) would not be possible at full load.

You do realise that one intake cycle (1/3 of a revolution) is a lot shorter time than "only a small part of a lap"? In fact it is about 1/50,000 th of a lap.

[saviour stivala]

This was the point I was trying to make.

You was making a point and I was making another, the differences are a matter of interpretation. In my answer I explained/claryfied myself. “I said that “The ‘injectors’ are not ‘permitted by the rules’ to flow more than 100 kg/h. And also not permitted under 10500 RPM to flow more than Q (KG/H) = 0.009 (RPM) 5.5. ‘injector’ means one injector, while ‘injectors’ means any number that are being used. The ‘injectors’ used, although as most parts of the fuel system have to be approved by the FIA, (individually), as all the parts of the fuel system, starting from the fuel tank itself, are capable of delevering/flowing much more fuel than the rules permit. Nobody is going to design and or use any part of the fuel system that can delliver/flow less than what is permitted. The injectors flow is controlled by SECU. The software is common to all engines, but indevidual tuning.calibrations are permitted withen the rules. So finally the ‘injectors’ are not permitted by the rules to flow more than the maximum that is permitted.

Dealing with the pressure waves in the high pressure fuel lines or indeed taking advantage of these pressure waves, the penultimate injection will effect the fuel mass delivered in the final injection per engine cycle per cylinder much like the fluid flow of air does in the intake system, these are engineering issues of the high pressure fuel system they are contending with, how much this in reality effects mass flow and how accurate the tools are at modelling this I am not sure of.

The FIA not only seems pretty sure of the effectivness of their policing tools but have shown that even the smallest of fuel mass and for the shortest of time above the flow rate it stipulats can not only be caought but that cars had been disqulified for all that.

[nzjrs]

Despite previous requests, this thread has gone around more circles than Santa Claus.

Im sorry but I still find this thread interesting. It's safely away from the ferarri one now. I may not be a mechanical engineer, but I am an electrical one and while some posters do not seem to concede anything, the surrounding discussion is still interesting.

Sensors, sampling and filtering strategies, tolerances and exploits are topics not touched as often here on F1T, please don't lock this away because of some individuals.

[saviour stivala]

Niether do i, more so now that the threads has been separated. but although disallowing posts is moderator prerogative, it will not let those following get to know parts (at least) of the actual goings-on on the matter at hand.

[aral]

I apologise. For some reason these posts are still showing on my computer as part of the Ferrari PU thread. It does appear that there has been a division of thread , so i am removing my comment and you can feel free to continue on this new thread.
Still, I would remind people that people have their own viewpoints and there should be no need for any rancour in sensible debate.

[saviour stivala]

Thank you aral for your mature reconsiering. So back to the topic.
"fuel flow more (over and above) what rules stipulate will be OK for a set time if fuel flow of less than what the rules stipulate is maintaned for the same set time and the fuel ammount compensates" No it will not, the car will be disqualified.
"there can be SPIKES in both fuel flow as well as fuel pressure (momentarly) which are higher than what the rules stipulates. any one of those situations will result in the car being disqualified. if proof of a car being disqualfied for any of the above situations is needed i will gladly give that proof moderators permitting.

[dans79]

any one of those situations will result in the car being disqualified. if proof of a car being disqualfied for any of the above situations is needed i will gladly give that proof moderators permitting.

You need to stop reading the ”rules” like they are some kind of absolutes, because they are not. Every thing has a tolerence.

A momentary Spike of say less then two tenths of a second, will not get a car disqualified it'll get them a warning.

That is exactly what happened in 2014 to red bull in Australia that you so often like to reference as if it's some kind of validation of your opinion. Red bull was disqualified in Australia, because after multiple warnings they did nothing to rectify the issue, insisting there monitoring methodology was better than the ffs.