FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

[UlleGulle]

Here's my two cents.

I think during scrutineering, the Ferrari Power Unit was found being able to do something stated outside the rules by the Technical Directives issued around the US GP.
This would explain both the lack of power in the late races and the dilemma the FIA is in. After Austin, Ferrari didnt use it, and before, it wasn't clearly stated as forbidden.

If disqualified for the season or the races before the TD:s, Ferrari would be certain to take legal action against that disqualification, and I don't think the FIA was sure of winning that battle.

[Schumix]

It has an aura of desparation about it regarding the FIA, maybe literally a case of "doomed if they did, doomed if they didn't".

I agree we should not automatically accept guild towards Ferrari. However, given this is so out of line for the FIA to do so, with the timing and none-disclosal of information, there is something behind this. People are right to be suspicious at the very least. Everybody should be rational and open minded, but let us not faint naïvity.

The thing behing this could be that the FIA is protecting Ferrari technology patent. Just simple like that...
Of course, people are right to be suspicious. Now, what do we do when even FIA has no proof for a probable illegality of the Ferrari PU? Someting which is not declared illegal is legal...

I am not entirely sure, but I did pick up a few years ago that patents in F1 are abolished to avoid court cases (which seems wise given teams will try to copy eachother).

You are right. I was meaning that the FIA is protecting Ferrari "innovation"; and not "patented technology".

F1 is about innovation. And that is also the FIA job to protect the technical innovations of the teams.

[izzy]

If I have understood correctly what Autosport says:

Code: Select all

The prosecuting body and all persons taking part in the inquiry are bound by an obligation of confidentiality vis‐à‐vis [b]third parties not concerned with the inquiry[/b].

it seems that the lack of information to third parties is written in FIA's Judicial and Disciplinary rules. Isn't it?
If so I wonder:
1) why didn't the other teams make a formal complaint and only threatened to do so?
2) why are the other teams only threatening to take legal action and are not doing it directly?
3) why did the other teams agreed FIA's Judicial and Disciplinary rules by participating to the championship, if they do not agree with them?
4) if FIA has followed its Judicial and Disciplinary rules (as it seems from the above article), what kind of legal action can the other teams do?

The other teams are obviously 'parties concerned with the enquiry', as the article points out:

The rules state: "The prosecuting body and all persons taking part in the inquiry are bound by an obligation of confidentiality vis‐à‐vis third parties not concerned with the inquiry.

The first sentence suggests an interesting legal question: are the seven F1 teams who do not use Ferrari engines "third parties not concerned with the inquiry?"

[RZS10]

I wonder how much of a role Laurent Mekies played in the 'settlement' given that he's the former F1 sporting director and probably knows the necessary 'legalese' ...

[Xwang]

If I have understood correctly what Autosport says:

Code: Select all

The prosecuting body and all persons taking part in the inquiry are bound by an obligation of confidentiality vis‐à‐vis [b]third parties not concerned with the inquiry[/b].

it seems that the lack of information to third parties is written in FIA's Judicial and Disciplinary rules. Isn't it?
If so I wonder:
1) why didn't the other teams make a formal complaint and only threatened to do so?
2) why are the other teams only threatening to take legal action and are not doing it directly?
3) why did the other teams agreed FIA's Judicial and Disciplinary rules by participating to the championship, if they do not agree with them?
4) if FIA has followed its Judicial and Disciplinary rules (as it seems from the above article), what kind of legal action can the other teams do?

The other teams are obviously 'parties concerned with the enquiry', as the article points out:

The rules state: "The prosecuting body and all persons taking part in the inquiry are bound by an obligation of confidentiality vis‐à‐vis third parties not concerned with the inquiry.

The first sentence suggests an interesting legal question: are the seven F1 teams who do not use Ferrari engines "third parties not concerned with the inquiry?"

Maybe they are not since they did not make a formal complaint (in which case they would certainly be).
I do not remember when, but some years ago there was a formal complaint and when it was judged only the defendant team and the team which had made the complaint were able to participate.

[nzjrs]

Don't they (FIA) sample the fuel each race and can thus investigate it in isolation? Historically compare with previous tests and perhaps other teams?

The fuel supplier is a plausible IP angle, but I'm not sure about the relative benefits of patenting chemical compounds VS the practical secrecy of them.

[izzy]

Maybe they are not since they did not make a formal complaint (in which case they would certainly be).
I do not remember when, but some years ago there was a formal complaint and when it was judged only the defendant team and the team which had made the complaint were able to participate.

well the article you were quoting says its "an interesting legal question: are the seven F1 teams who do not use Ferrari engines "third parties not concerned with the inquiry?"

so i don't think it really gets FIA off the hook, personally. It might, on that technicality, or it might not. But anyway i don't suppose it's actually going to end up in court is it. It a power thing, that sets half of F1 against the other half, with no Concorde contracts signed for next year and who knows what other ways of waging a little F1 war. The others might just be looking to weaken the old FIA/Ferrari alliance

[enri_the_red]

Article 2.5 of the technical rugulations allows the FIA to ban legal technical innovations that are deemed to add no value to F1. If it happens the team must publish details about such technology.
It's possible that the agreement between FIA and Ferrari has been done in order to prevent Ferrari from using such technology, but at the same time granting them the confidentiality neeed before filing a patent.

[Just_a_fan]

In the second hand, and according to you, the FIA is supposed to communicate to the other teams the secrets of Ferrari PU?

I never said that the FIA should tell the other teams about Ferrari's PU. Stop making things up to suit your own narrative.

[JordanMugen]

The longer it goes with out them explaining exactly what happened the more damaging it'll become when the truth finally comes out. Which it will.

I think this should be included here for completeness sake:


It's curious indeed that rivals teams would make such a boldly worded and provocative statement.

[Mrdobolina]

Against Ferrari :
Leclerc more fuel in Abu Dhabi
Unexpectedly huge leap in power mid season
Unreasonably large drop in power later parts of season
Seems to be down on power in testing
Second fuel flow sensor to be installed
Shady circumstances of FIA announcement
Jean Todt is the president of FIA
FIA not deeming their engine legal
Wording of agreement ("settlement")
Financial/image implications for FIA / Ferrari if cheat surfaces
Rumored total redesign of engine
For FERRARI:
Power loss partly explained by more downforce (better df sectors)
Customer teams are still OK on power, works team maybe sandbagging
FIA not deeming their engine illegal in the statement
The even bigger --- show if it surfaces that FIA deliberately covering Ferraris back
If FIA was trying to cover Ferraris back they did a very very shitty job

Depending on the color of glasses you wear Ferrari might seem guilty or not, but there is no definitive answer. It doesn't look good for Ferrari, but also it doesn't look that bad either.

I see it completely feasible that Ferrari could in some way enhance fuel to give an incorrect reading on the sensor (deliberately or not) and FIA maybe could reproduce it (speculation: I think Red Bulls reconstruction might have helped, but while redbull could partially trick the sensor they couldn't do it with a running engine in an integrated system). Now they cannot prove it was used, as the only thing that would indicate it would be the sensor and Ferrari were likely smart enough to only use it carefully. The tricky part is here. Fia has no other tools to assess whether fuel flow was higher or not and suspicion is not enough. Say a cars fuel flow sensor dies. Should that car be disqualified as it might run with higher fuel flow?

Regarding what actually went on. First I was thinking something with temperature but it seems too easy also from an other thread it seems like sensors are before and after the flow sensor. Intercooler path is interesting. Maybe it is adding (in some cases) something to the ful that changes it's properties. Heck do I know, maybe induces bubbles and effecting the sensor in some way.

[izzy]

I think this should be included here for completeness sake:
https://f1-insider.com/wp-content/uploa ... 8x1226.png

It's curious indeed that rivals teams would make such a boldly worded and provocative statement.

it's pretty strong isn't it! Mentioning "integrity". It's connected to the 2021 Agreements i bet, and generally who's who in F1 now. Has F1 ever had an array of players like Mercedes, Red Bull, Renault and Honda, all together?

[siskue2005]

The longer it goes with out them explaining exactly what happened the more damaging it'll become when the truth finally comes out. Which it will.

I think this should be included here for completeness sake:
https://f1-insider.com/wp-content/uploa ... 8x1226.png

It's curious indeed that rivals teams would make such a boldly worded and provocative statement.

Wow!
Never thought all teams (except the ferrari teams) would even put up such a public notice and statement! Just shows how deep and impactful it has been for fans and even other teams. This really puts a perspective on what really went with Ferrari's engines.

[TheFluffy]

I know this is all fun and games and all that we are talking about it but seriously I feel like people are just trying to read what you want to hear from the lines given from the FIA announcement. So what now... if Ferrrari's pace is nowhere and people would point 'you see, told you so they were cheating'. Or if they suddenly drop their sandbags in Australia and people say 'look they still cheating, FIA clearly means Todt has been biased towards Ferrari and allowing them to cheat...' is there a version out that Ferrari isn't blamed for cheating?

[Just_a_fan]

Is there a reason that voting has been removed from this topic?