FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

[DiogoBrand]

There is a clear possibility that Ferrari has violated the rules in order to obtain a competitive advantage, most likely by finding a way around the fuel flow meter. Anyone who denies this possibility is delusional.

"Oh but maybe it was legal and the FIA just didn't want to disclose the technology"
If that was the case, the FIA's statement would have said something along the lines of "The system was found to be in compliance with the regulations, but further details won't be disclosed", nowhere in the statement does it say it was legal, and legal technlogies don't require settlements and teams doing community service.

"Then why didn't they punish Ferrari by removing points or excluding them from the championship?"
Simple, because any time something doesn't go Ferrari's way they act like a child throwing the toys out of the pram, and the FIA doesn't want to run the risk of Ferrari withdrawing from F1 (which I find absurd, Ferrari needs F1 as much as F1 needs Ferrari, and no competitor should become bigger than a whole sport).

"Oh but Mercedes has DAS"
You mean the system that they asked FIA about before implementing? Or you mean the system the FIA has publicly said was legal for this season? And even if it was illegal, two wrongs don't make a right.

I believe I have condensed 95% of the arguments from this thread so far on this single post.

[dans79]

I believe I have condensed 95% of the arguments from this thread so far on this single post.

You've condensed pretty much the entire history of the FIA interaction with any team that might have done something potentially illegal.

[Racer X]

The only question i have is how early on did the FIA learn of Ferraris P.U. issues because they said they had been investigating for months.... How many months.... Early season or late season because if they let Ferrari go racing for 90% of the season with a Power Unit that does not comply with the general spirit of the rules. Then thats a huge slap to the 3rd Place and 1st place teams. Because Mercedes managed to still win but nobody got a fair fight. But i mean all teams play with the rules so everyone does this at some point but if Honda was to be found doing this how would they react to them? Also did they play in a grey area or did they completely cross the line.

[apexcontrol]

yess that might be true. i did make a topic about fuel, like when things starting to happen....because there is something strange about it. the smell, the smoke....thats no ordinaire fuel they are using. merc was burning oil.....but ferrari was burning something special. very very weird smell.

I see no reason to settlement something that complies with the rules. I see a reason for a settlement... If there was anything illegal or if there was evidence that something was illegal, but that it could not be proven now.

In addition, the agreement along the lines of what was disclosed by the FIA seems to me to be a kind of soft punishment. If Ferrari were within the rules then they would not need to accept the settlement.

Obviously we cannot say that there was cheating or not, but today, the evidence indicates this direction more strongly.

Perhaps that was the intention of the FIA ... something like "we can't say that Ferrari cheated, but we can imply that between the lines" - but that's just my conspiracy theory.

[TheFluffy]

Most people? including the 7 other teams?
So whom should we go with? bunch of ferrari fans in an online anonymous f1 forum or any the 7 actual f1 teams?

What are the teams? Aliens or people? Which part of my post is false in that regard? If I’m telling that most people interpret it like that, I don’t attack them for their opinion.

I don’t have a definitive opinion on that matter. The easiest way will be to just wait for the season to start and see how Ferrari performs.

Team is a Team, People are people; Team is not an alien, but an establishment.

What i was trying to say is, when the Seven F1 team out of 10 Teams....i will repeat Seven F1 team out of 10 Teams together give out a statement like that shows how many reputed people think that Ferrari did something naughty!
It is not anymore about a bunch of opinions put out by online people it has gone to next level of legitimacy..... it is no longer fans opinion or people's opinion, it is proper statement by teams, which cannot be denied by anyone. For them to come out like this means there HAS been something fishy going on.

I would actually intepret it as the teams were mostly frustrated by the ambiguity of the announcement, it never said anything it being legal or not. I don't think the 7 teams think its illegal cuz everything they think Ferrari engine does is absolutely pure speculation. They just want to see if what Ferrari does is legal. If legal = they want to copy. If not 'whew' great they dont need to spend millions on trying to replicate the design. This is what they want to know. Now with this secret agreeement they don't know whats what. THIS IS THE MAIN POINT I think most people fail to recognise.

Their collective address never challeneged FIA investigation techniques in terms of authority and their credibility in determining Ferrari's engine legality, simply the transparency as they want to know the details simple as that....

[siskue2005]

What are the teams? Aliens or people? Which part of my post is false in that regard? If I’m telling that most people interpret it like that, I don’t attack them for their opinion.

I don’t have a definitive opinion on that matter. The easiest way will be to just wait for the season to start and see how Ferrari performs.

Team is a Team, People are people; Team is not an alien, but an establishment.

What i was trying to say is, when the Seven F1 team out of 10 Teams....i will repeat Seven F1 team out of 10 Teams together give out a statement like that shows how many reputed people think that Ferrari did something naughty!
It is not anymore about a bunch of opinions put out by online people it has gone to next level of legitimacy..... it is no longer fans opinion or people's opinion, it is proper statement by teams, which cannot be denied by anyone. For them to come out like this means there HAS been something fishy going on.

I would actually intepret it as the teams were mostly frustrated by the ambiguity of the announcement, it never said anything it being legal or not. I don't think the 7 teams think its illegal cuz everything they think Ferrari engine does is absolutely pure speculation. They just want to see if what Ferrari does is legal. If legal = they want to copy. If not 'whew' great they dont need to spend millions on trying to replicate the design. This is what they want to know. Now with this secret agreeement they don't know whats what. THIS IS THE MAIN POINT I think most people fail to recognise.

Their collective address never challeneged FIA investigation techniques in terms of authority and their credibility in determining Ferrari's engine legality, simply the transparency as they want to know the details simple as that....

Read this article
https://f1-insider.com/en/formula1/team ... d-ferrari/

They all know it is something naughty and they r upset coz no action was taken or everything was brushed under the carpet. Rumours that Redbull are even going to sue coz Ferrari let go freely will cost them 20 million €

If other teams just wanted to know about legality of any similar system they developed or plan to develop, they just need to get clarification from fia, like they did with the DAS system... it is that simple

[e30ernest]

Team is a Team, People are people; Team is not an alien, but an establishment.

What i was trying to say is, when the Seven F1 team out of 10 Teams....i will repeat Seven F1 team out of 10 Teams together give out a statement like that shows how many reputed people think that Ferrari did something naughty!
It is not anymore about a bunch of opinions put out by online people it has gone to next level of legitimacy..... it is no longer fans opinion or people's opinion, it is proper statement by teams, which cannot be denied by anyone. For them to come out like this means there HAS been something fishy going on.

I would actually intepret it as the teams were mostly frustrated by the ambiguity of the announcement, it never said anything it being legal or not. I don't think the 7 teams think its illegal cuz everything they think Ferrari engine does is absolutely pure speculation. They just want to see if what Ferrari does is legal. If legal = they want to copy. If not 'whew' great they dont need to spend millions on trying to replicate the design. This is what they want to know. Now with this secret agreeement they don't know whats what. THIS IS THE MAIN POINT I think most people fail to recognise.

Their collective address never challeneged FIA investigation techniques in terms of authority and their credibility in determining Ferrari's engine legality, simply the transparency as they want to know the details simple as that....

Read this article
https://f1-insider.com/en/formula1/team ... d-ferrari/

They all know it is something naughty and they r upset coz no action was taken or everything was brushed under the carpet. Rumours that Redbull are even going to sue coz Ferrari let go freely will cost them 20 million €

If other teams just wanted to know about legality of any similar system they developed or plan to develop, they just need to get clarification from fia, like they did with the DAS system... it is that simple

I agree. IMO it's getting hard to defend. It's like having a boxer being suspected of using performance enhancing drugs and the WBA issuing a statement that after they've investigated said boxer, they've reached a "settlement" over the matter and things would stay "between" them.

If the Ferrari engine was legal, the FIA would have said as such. If the FIA couldn't find sufficient proof to prove the Ferrari engine was illegal, they would have said that as well. In either scenario, they do not have to disclose specific technical information. But having worded the announcement that way made it really suspicious.

[hollus]

You’ve convinced me guys. The most interesting thing about this settlement is the fact that it was made public.

[Mrdobolina]

What are the teams? Aliens or people? Which part of my post is false in that regard? If I’m telling that most people interpret it like that, I don’t attack them for their opinion.

I don’t have a definitive opinion on that matter. The easiest way will be to just wait for the season to start and see how Ferrari performs.

Team is a Team, People are people; Team is not an alien, but an establishment.

What i was trying to say is, when the Seven F1 team out of 10 Teams....i will repeat Seven F1 team out of 10 Teams together give out a statement like that shows how many reputed people think that Ferrari did something naughty!
It is not anymore about a bunch of opinions put out by online people it has gone to next level of legitimacy..... it is no longer fans opinion or people's opinion, it is proper statement by teams, which cannot be denied by anyone. For them to come out like this means there HAS been something fishy going on.

I would actually intepret it as the teams were mostly frustrated by the ambiguity of the announcement, it never said anything it being legal or not. I don't think the 7 teams think its illegal cuz everything they think Ferrari engine does is absolutely pure speculation. They just want to see if what Ferrari does is legal. If legal = they want to copy. If not 'whew' great they dont need to spend millions on trying to replicate the design. This is what they want to know. Now with this secret agreeement they don't know whats what. THIS IS THE MAIN POINT I think most people fail to recognise.

Their collective address never challeneged FIA investigation techniques in terms of authority and their credibility in determining Ferrari's engine legality, simply the transparency as they want to know the details simple as that....

I'm of the impression that if legal FIA won't have to disclose it. If illegal FIA would have to disclose it.

I don't buy the FIA is covering Ferrari's ass as that statement was worse for that purpose than Ferrari's most questionable race strategies.

[apexcontrol]

Drivers may use up to 110kg of fuel, alright..... 100kg/hr max flow. alright,
ensity is an absolutely key parameter, because the teams are obviously keen to minimize volume and weight. And that inevitably means compromise.

"When you measure fuel consumption, you can do it in terms of volume or in terms of mass. Most of the teams in the paddock would probably go on a volumetric fuel consumption. Mass, or what we call a gravimetric fuel consumption, is something that Ferrari have been interested in the past.

"You have to find the right balance between the weight of the fuel and the volume. Once you've set your fuel tank and you know what the maximum volume is, then clearly you want the weight to be as light as possible for that given volume.

"Originally, when we were looking at density, it was about trying to define the volume. That was the winter work, but now we can play with the density to try to lighten the mass.

there is something going on with that fuel mix there using. and they use the shell patent pending bullshit to not give disclosure about the thing

[dans79]

They all know it is something naughty and they r upset coz no action was taken or everything was brushed under the carpet. Rumours that Redbull are even going to sue coz Ferrari let go freely will cost them 20 million €

If I believed a competitor cheated and the governing body was covering it up, I'd be out for blood as well, and I'm not talking about a few drops.

[Just_a_fan]

This, at this time (imo) is seeming the most plausible explanation TO ME. I think the reason for non-disclosure is because the technology doesn’t belong to Ferrari - my SUSPICION is that it is indeed their fuel (belonging to Shell) and is possibly patent pending. Shell may have legitimate commercial applications for such technology/additives that aren’t bound by fuel flow limits specific to F1.

Intriguiiiiiiinnnnngggggg

This makes some sense to me. If it's the case, it's strange that the FIA's statement didn't say something about it. Easy to say - one of Ferrari's technology partners has commercial rights interests that can't be made public at this stage, but Ferrari have agreed some penance because they benefited from something that might be marginal so far as the regulations are concerned.

[dans79]

If the Ferrari engine was legal, the FIA would have said as such. If the FIA couldn't find sufficient proof to prove the Ferrari engine was illegal, they would have said that as well. In either scenario, they do not have to disclose specific technical information. But having worded the announcement that way made it really suspicious.

As I see it, Either Ferrari cheated and the FIA is trying to sweep it under the rug. The FIA is embarrassed that it put themselves and Ferrari under undue public scrutiny because it took them so long to understand how the PU works, and thus are trying to sweep the issue under the rug. The FIA has some horrendously bad employees in the PR department, who can't write a press release to save their lives.

[e30ernest]

If the Ferrari engine was legal, the FIA would have said as such. If the FIA couldn't find sufficient proof to prove the Ferrari engine was illegal, they would have said that as well. In either scenario, they do not have to disclose specific technical information. But having worded the announcement that way made it really suspicious.

As I see it, Either Ferrari cheated and the FIA is trying to sweep it under the rug. The FIA is embarrassed that it put themselves and Ferrari under undue public scrutiny because it took them so long to understand how the PU works, and thus are trying to sweep the issue under the rug. The FIA has some horrendously bad employees in the PR department, who can't write a press release to save their lives.

I'm not too sure about that... The FIA have been wrong before, and they don't mind admitting to it. The flexy wings of the past obviously flexed on camera, but they "passed" the tests so the FIA said they were legal. They've done about-faces on TDs before. The FIA admits to mistakes all the time.

Even if the FIA made a mistake, why are Ferrari being so quiet? It's their reputation at risk here as well. If Ferrari were innocent and the FIA would not admit to it, I'd be very angry if I were Ferrari. But Ferrari are quiet too, and so are its customer teams.

[DChemTech]

The FIA clearly tried to sneak it out in a way that would reduce the level of initial publicity. However, that backfired, because of the incendiary content of the announcement. As soon as the teams and F1 fans read it, you can imagine most people going "What The......".
It is not a lovey-dovey "Nothing is amiss, we all agreed on this, and we will live happily ever after" announcement. The announcement, when you parse it, says "we suspected Ferrari of breaking the 2019 technical regulations, they refused to agree, so we have come to a compromise where Ferrari sort of pay a fine by supporting certain FIA activities, and we are sweeping this under the carpet. Business as usual, Bye".
They also issued it less than 2 weeks in advance of the Australian Grand Prix, which is at significant risk of cancellation. Ferrari, Alpha Tauri and Pirelli are all based in Italy, and Italy is a hotbed of the Coronavirus pandemic right now.
The bigger question: why issue the statement now? And why was there no response at all from Ferrari? (I have not seen or heard of any official comment by them).
There are several possible reasons that I can think of (NOTE - I am now speculating).
1. Somebody had the entire details of the incident and was about to leak them. The FIA issued the statement as a pre-emptive action, with all parties signing NDAs so that if any details leak, the parties have legal recourse against the leaker.
2. Ferrari was threatening to withdraw from flyaway races in 2020 because of the Coronavirus pandemic, and the FIA needed something with which to shock them to fall back in line.
3. There are significant disagreements still between the FIA, Liberty and Ferrari over the 2021 onwards commercial and technical contracts, and the FIA went public with this announcement to increase its leverage over Ferrari in the short term.

The whole "we release it in the last few minutes of testing while everyone is busy wrapping up" strategy baffles me. Did they really think they would get away with that? I know Todt is old, but really, does he still think it's 1930 or so? Never heard of twitter? No idea of the general state of the internet and fans/antifans these days - or team social media staff for that matter? There was absolutely no way it would ever go even slightly unnoticed. All they did was make it even more suspicious. As if the whole strategy behind this thing was to maximize outrage.

Maybe they just did it to distract from all the corona fuzz. Get a legitimate reason to cancel the season without accusations of pandemicpanic :p.