FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

[e30ernest]

Drivers may use up to 110kg of fuel, alright..... 100kg/hr max flow. alright,
ensity is an absolutely key parameter, because the teams are obviously keen to minimize volume and weight. And that inevitably means compromise.

"When you measure fuel consumption, you can do it in terms of volume or in terms of mass. Most of the teams in the paddock would probably go on a volumetric fuel consumption. Mass, or what we call a gravimetric fuel consumption, is something that Ferrari have been interested in the past.

"You have to find the right balance between the weight of the fuel and the volume. Once you've set your fuel tank and you know what the maximum volume is, then clearly you want the weight to be as light as possible for that given volume.

"Originally, when we were looking at density, it was about trying to define the volume. That was the winter work, but now we can play with the density to try to lighten the mass.

there is something going on with that fuel mix there using. and they use the shell patent pending bullshit to not give disclosure about the thing

Why would they base fuel on volume? F1 cars are operating at very tight tolerances on weight. Since fuel volume is directly affected by temperature, why would they base things on that? I'm pretty sure they base all their fuel maths on mass. We never hear them talk about fuel in terms of liters. It's always in terms of kilograms.

If you are referring to the fuel's energy density as its "density", then I think all teams would be looking at MJ/kg as well.

[apexcontrol]

Drivers may use up to 110kg of fuel, alright..... 100kg/hr max flow. alright,
ensity is an absolutely key parameter, because the teams are obviously keen to minimize volume and weight. And that inevitably means compromise.

"When you measure fuel consumption, you can do it in terms of volume or in terms of mass. Most of the teams in the paddock would probably go on a volumetric fuel consumption. Mass, or what we call a gravimetric fuel consumption, is something that Ferrari have been interested in the past.

"You have to find the right balance between the weight of the fuel and the volume. Once you've set your fuel tank and you know what the maximum volume is, then clearly you want the weight to be as light as possible for that given volume.

"Originally, when we were looking at density, it was about trying to define the volume. That was the winter work, but now we can play with the density to try to lighten the mass.

there is something going on with that fuel mix there using. and they use the shell patent pending bullshit to not give disclosure about the thing

Why would they base fuel on volume? F1 cars are operating at very tight tolerances on weight. Since fuel volume is directly affected by temperature, why would they base things on that? I'm pretty sure they base all their fuel maths on mass. We never hear them talk about fuel in terms of liters. It's always in terms of kilograms.

If you are referring to the fuel's energy density as its "density", then I think all teams would be looking at MJ/kg as well.

One of the key challenges associated with ultrasonic flow meters is maintaining accuracy over a wide range of flow rates, from a few liters per hour (lph) to tens of thousands lph. Another challenge is maintaining flow-rate accuracy over fluid temperatures that can range from 0°C to 85°C, depending on the application. Because the velocity of an ultrasonic wave in fluid varies with the fluid’s temperature, the difference in propagation time to take flow-rate measurements will introduce errors when the fluid temperature changes. For example, the velocity of sound in water varies between 1,420 mps to 1,540 mps and is neither linear nor asymptotic in nature, as shown in Figure 5 on the following page. In general, this can lead to errors in flow-rate estimation of more than 5 percent if you do not account for temperature. For improved accuracy, the system will require a temperature sensor


so you see with additives in the fuel, and using temp to controle specs of fuel....surely shell can make some extreme fuel composition....thats why the smell and smoke where strange........there tricking the fuel flow meter on a molecular level.

https://www.gptoday.net/en/news/f1/2488 ... azzi-s-car
ofcourse a ferrari engine

[snowy]

Article 2.5 of the technical rugulations allows the FIA to ban legal technical innovations that are deemed to add no value to F1. If it happens the team must publish details about such technology.
It's possible that the agreement between FIA and Ferrari has been done in order to prevent Ferrari from using such technology, but at the same time granting them the confidentiality neeed before filing a patent.

This, at this time (imo) is seeming the most plausible explanation TO ME. I think the reason for non-disclosure is because the technology doesn’t belong to Ferrari - my SUSPICION is that it is indeed their fuel (belonging to Shell) and is possibly patent pending. Shell may have legitimate commercial applications for such technology/additives that aren’t bound by fuel flow limits specific to F1.

Intriguiiiiiiinnnnngggggg

Seems unlikely as oil companies like Shell have batteries of Patent lawyers, Patents and Patent pending on everything under the Sun. Not to mention legions of covert operatives. None of them are naive enough to believe intellectual property is actually secret for long. They wouldn't use it in such an open arena and not have filed a patent...

[the EDGE]

Drivers may use up to 110kg of fuel, alright..... 100kg/hr max flow. alright,
ensity is an absolutely key parameter, because the teams are obviously keen to minimize volume and weight. And that inevitably means compromise.

"When you measure fuel consumption, you can do it in terms of volume or in terms of mass. Most of the teams in the paddock would probably go on a volumetric fuel consumption. Mass, or what we call a gravimetric fuel consumption, is something that Ferrari have been interested in the past.

"You have to find the right balance between the weight of the fuel and the volume. Once you've set your fuel tank and you know what the maximum volume is, then clearly you want the weight to be as light as possible for that given volume.

"Originally, when we were looking at density, it was about trying to define the volume. That was the winter work, but now we can play with the density to try to lighten the mass.

there is something going on with that fuel mix there using. and they use the shell patent pending bullshit to not give disclosure about the thing

Why would they base fuel on volume? F1 cars are operating at very tight tolerances on weight. Since fuel volume is directly affected by temperature, why would they base things on that? I'm pretty sure they base all their fuel maths on mass. We never hear them talk about fuel in terms of liters. It's always in terms of kilograms.

If you are referring to the fuel's energy density as its "density", then I think all teams would be looking at MJ/kg as well.

I think you e answered your own question Because the weight of the fuel remains constant regardless of the density change due to temperature

1kg of fuel will always way 1kg whether it’s at -10’c or +20’c

[CRazyLemon]

The customer teams remains a puzzle. They have not said a word about being down on power during testing. In fact the engine hasn't been mentioned at all by them. Have they all been told to be hush? They didn't seem to be down on power either from what I saw in the speed traps, why is that?

Ferrari noticeably lost performance from Austin onwards, everyone believes the TDs caused this, then surely job done, yet the FIA still impounded the engines, so that is strange in itself because surely if the TDs caused a power change, why would you suspect any further?

I wonder if Ferrari had plenty ingenuity going on and the settlement is about what they can use and what they cannot continue to use. I propose a theory that Ferrari ran their engine in low modes so that the scrutiny would stop until the announcement was released. Then Ferrari can switch on the features as settled on and when the other teams kick up a fuss Ferrari can say all done a dealt with and could anticipate no TDs coming out that would hamper what they have. Similar to Mercedes and the DAS system., except you cannot see into the engine so the teams cannot spend time thinking of ways to get it defined as illegal.

[e30ernest]

Yes, but his post implies teams look into this based on volume. I may be misunderstanding his post though. This part specifically:

"You have to find the right balance between the weight of the fuel and the volume. Once you've set your fuel tank and you know what the maximum volume is, then clearly you want the weight to be as light as possible for that given volume.

"Originally, when we were looking at density, it was about trying to define the volume. That was the winter work, but now we can play with the density to try to lighten the mass.

[kimetic]

I am waiting for the FIA reply... They have to say something today I would say.

[CRazyLemon]

I am waiting for the FIA reply... They have to say something today I would say.

Maybe only next Thursday when the season really kicks off.

[snowy]

Perhaps every aspect of this matter, its inputs, its investigations, its implications and outcomes have been, are being governed by quantum laws and the uncertainty principle... perhaps there is nothing in the fuel tank until it is measured? Like Schrodinger's Cat it is neither alive or dead until you open the box... The crime is not a crime until you look with the intention of finding a crime...

To add weight to my theory, I just found this:

Ferrari find engine fault
The Scuderia's new SF1000 was the first on-track breakdown of 2020 during the first test at Barcelona - and Ferrari have now discovered what went wrong.

"The fault was traced to a non-structural problem with the lubrication system."

[Capharol]

Marc Priestley asking: "With seven F1 teams picking a joint fight against the FIA and Ferrari, what could the eventual outcome be?"

[GPR-A]

Fourteen pages of pure speculation about a vague statement issued by FIA. Click bait media pages printing their own version of it and half baked F1 experts throwing in a few videos of their into the mix. People do have a lot of time to spend talking about a matter, the truth of which would probably never come out.

[mafeotul]

Everyone waiting for the FIA's response when to be honest is quite clear by their statement, they are probably not going to release any more information. I think the only way forward now is for the case to get to a Court. This way at least everyone will know, if it is a smoke-screen to hide Ferrari's innovations ( Grey Area) if the FIA has discovered any or a cover-up which would make the whole sport/industry implode. I tend to believe the first as i do not believe any one at this level of a sport and high level entertainment would purposefully damage it to such extents.

[Mr.G]

Fourteen pages of pure speculation about a vague statement issued by FIA. Click bait media pages printing their own version of it and half baked F1 experts throwing in a few videos of their into the mix. People do have a lot of time to spend talking about a matter, the truth of which would probably never come out.

And don't forget that other teams now have "work" with it so good for Ferrari

[Ced]

Wolff, Marko and co will make a big mess on the new Ferrari engine because they want to discover and understand what's underneath. They are putting lot of pressure on the FIA ​​to know every detail for then copying it.

[snowy]

Fourteen pages of pure speculation about a vague statement issued by FIA. Click bait media pages printing their own version of it and half baked F1 experts throwing in a few videos of their into the mix. People do have a lot of time to spend talking about a matter, the truth of which would probably never come out.

Uncertainty principle strikes again! ...
No news is bad news!