FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

[Xwang]

Summary of the topic:
-Ferrari was not playing according to the rules, commonly know as cheating.
-The FIA however could not secure the evidence to build a legal case (which is different than whether or not you did it).
-Max was right (although it was a ‘Prost tractor’ like comment with regards to his future at Ferrari)

-Wrong
-Correct
-Wrong

[Wustenfuchs]

Summary of the topic:
-Ferrari was not playing according to the rules, commonly know as cheating.
-The FIA however could not secure the evidence to build a legal case (which is different than whether or not you did it).
-Max was right (although it was a ‘Prost tractor’ like comment with regards to his future at Ferrari)

No, Ferrari was clearly pushing the rules but doing it well enough that they can't get caught, commonly known as competing in Formula 1.

Max was not right since he was talking out of his ass just like the majority of the F1 world is now. Everybody would like to have it in black and white that Ferrari are cheaters, that is clear enough and has always been the case, but that isn't the case. There's nothing to it, and if anybody thinks other top F1 teams aren't pushing and bending the rules in whatever aspect they can, they are simply either being dishonest or ignorant about the matter.

[snowy]

The real crime is getting caught. They haven't been caught, therefore there is no crime. But we'll treat them as criminals anyway and employ them to catch the real criminals...

...it's no wonder the other teams are upset!

[dren]

It's interesting that Ferrari are now being tasked with policing Formula One?

No conflict of interest at all...

[TAG]

The real crime is getting caught. They haven't been caught, therefore there is no crime. But we'll treat them as criminals anyway and employ them to catch the real criminals...

...it's no wonder the other teams are upset!

OJ Simpson.

[snowy]

It is time for my Tony Curtis impersonating Cary Grant impersonation: "But nobody talks like that!"

[DChemTech]

Summary of the topic:
-Ferrari was not playing according to the rules, commonly know as cheating.
-The FIA however could not secure the evidence to build a legal case (which is different than whether or not you did it).
-Max was right (although it was a ‘Prost tractor’ like comment with regards to his future at Ferrari)

No, Ferrari was clearly pushing the rules but doing it well enough that they can't get caught, commonly known as competing in Formula 1.

Max was not right since he was talking out of his ass just like the majority of the F1 world is now. Everybody would like to have it in black and white that Ferrari are cheaters, that is clear enough and has always been the case, but that isn't the case. There's nothing to it, and if anybody thinks other top F1 teams aren't pushing and bending the rules in whatever aspect they can, they are simply either being dishonest or ignorant about the matter.

And in response one could once again bring forward that true innocents that may have challenged but not breached regulations would not opt for a settlement and community service. But we've been down that lane at least 5x before. The whole affair of "is Ferrari guilty of cheating" (of the act, not of getting caught) is just turning into a back and forth "you're wrong" between camp yes and camp no (or more accurately, camp probably and unlikely).

The more interesting questions at his point are, in my view:

1) does the current state of affairs warrant further investigation, considering there are suspicions but no clear proof, or is it case closed and other teams just have to deal with it?
2) should more transparency be offered considering the nature of the settlement and alleged breach of regulation?
3) is it fair that Ferrari is 'sentenced' to community service in the field where, allegedly, they may have stretched or breached the regulations, considering they could leverage the additional insights into and potentially even control over the regulations that this offers?

[dans79]

It remains to be seen if there is a drop in performance.
The drop in performance scenario, atm is just used to try and justify the bias assumption that "they were cheating!"

And the continued shouting that nothing has changed is some just trying to imply the opposite.

[Unc1eM0nty]

Well obviously they proved that they complied, otherwise the would have been found in breech of a stipulated regulation.

I think "complied" is putting a bit strongly, this is what they actually said "The FIA was not fully satisfied"

Which leaves us in some murkey middle ground where there is no breech, but no proof of compliance, that's why this who issue is such a cluster £u#$

[TAG]

The defense insistence on defending Ferrari and claiming they didn't cheat is the classic, can't see the forest for the trees. No evidence Ferrari cheated, other than they show up with an additional 30 hp after the summer break and then it magically all goes away as soon as the FiA starts looking into it and makes a couple of rule classifications to the matter. No evidence, it's laughable.

Post reeks of irony, just like most of yours.
You cite vague conclusions as palpable evidence while also making some false, unsubstantiated claims to support your argument. I wish this kind of mindlessness was kept out of a forum like this one, but unfortunately it has also filled with trolls.

The claim that they showed up with 30hp after the summer break is incorrect, they had superior acceleration on many tracks before it throughout 2019 as well as some in 2018, when the speculation train started. This, while being inaccurate is also not provable, as with most things in F1, its journalists reporting what they've heard, which is 90% incorrect and speculation-estimation. Then you claim it all went away after some TDs, which is obviously hasn't. You just provide your feelings and no substance or analysis. Basically your comment is the condensed version of the typical hive-mind comment going around the social media and infecting everyone who isn't versed with F1 technicalities.

And that is not only laughable but irresponsible so I suggest to the moderators of this forum to warn users making comments such as this one. It's 100% flaming and trolling and 0% F1 technical.

Wow look at you attacking someone personally when you've got nothing.

"Qualifying wasn't as strong this year but still, I was qualifying front row, top three quite often, and split the Ferraris when they all of a sudden had 30bhp more than everyone.

A comment from Hamilton during the weekend's trophy awards event. You know this is stuff he's repeating that he's seen Mercedes' data on the "sudden 30bhp more". No different than what Verstappen said. We can go back and forth all we want, but Red Bull and clearly Mercedes given Hamilton's comment were pretty sure the power appeared out of nowhere and packaged with a nice estimate for us to continue the disagreements.

And what was it that Verstappen said? I guess your being triggered is more valid than two of the top drivers in the sport (who are privy to the technical data their team gather) should be given more weight than their comments and the FiA's clarification. Facts matter.

[dans79]

1) does the current state of affairs warrant further investigation, considering there are suspicions but no clear proof, or is it case closed and other teams just have to deal with it?
2) should more transparency be offered considering the nature of the settlement and alleged breach of regulation?
3) is it fair that Ferrari is 'sentenced' to community service in the field where, allegedly, they may have stretched or breached the regulations, considering they could leverage the additional insights into and potentially even control over the regulations that this offers?

1) Yes/No
2) Yes
3) No

[GPR-A]

Summary of the topic:
-Ferrari was not playing according to the rules, commonly know as cheating.
-The FIA however could not secure the evidence to build a legal case (which is different than whether or not you did it).
-Max was right (although it was a ‘Prost tractor’ like comment with regards to his future at Ferrari)

No, Ferrari was clearly pushing the rules but doing it well enough that they can't get caught, commonly known as competing in Formula 1.

Max was not right since he was talking out of his ass just like the majority of the F1 world is now. Everybody would like to have it in black and white that Ferrari are cheaters, that is clear enough and has always been the case, but that isn't the case. There's nothing to it, and if anybody thinks other top F1 teams aren't pushing and bending the rules in whatever aspect they can, they are simply either being dishonest or ignorant about the matter.

To summarize....

This is what people are inhaling when they say, Ferrari was cheating. All without any proof!

[Wustenfuchs]

Summary of the topic:
-Ferrari was not playing according to the rules, commonly know as cheating.
-The FIA however could not secure the evidence to build a legal case (which is different than whether or not you did it).
-Max was right (although it was a ‘Prost tractor’ like comment with regards to his future at Ferrari)

No, Ferrari was clearly pushing the rules but doing it well enough that they can't get caught, commonly known as competing in Formula 1.

Max was not right since he was talking out of his ass just like the majority of the F1 world is now. Everybody would like to have it in black and white that Ferrari are cheaters, that is clear enough and has always been the case, but that isn't the case. There's nothing to it, and if anybody thinks other top F1 teams aren't pushing and bending the rules in whatever aspect they can, they are simply either being dishonest or ignorant about the matter.

And in response one could once again bring forward that true innocents that may have challenged but not breached regulations would not opt for a settlement and community service. But we've been down that lane at least 5x before. The whole affair of "is Ferrari guilty of cheating" (of the act, not of getting caught) is just turning into a back and forth "you're wrong" between camp yes and camp no (or more accurately, camp probably and unlikely).

The more interesting questions at his point are, in my view:

1) does the current state of affairs warrant further investigation, considering there are suspicions but no clear proof, or is it case closed and other teams just have to deal with it?
2) should more transparency be offered considering the nature of the settlement and alleged breach of regulation?
3) is it fair that Ferrari is 'sentenced' to community service in the field where, allegedly, they may have stretched or breached the regulations, considering they could leverage the additional insights into and potentially even control over the regulations that this offers?

The problem is that this entire discussion is based on some presumptions about how it's being done. How exactly were Ferrari extracting that performance? We don't know. There are hints, but only rumors and presumptions, no real evidence or really causalities that could be connected to say, TDs. The very presumption that they were messing with the FFM, therefore the conclusion that tricking it would be a breach of regulation, could simply be false. It could simply be 100% false or only a part of the entire system, and that Ferrari reached a settlement to be able to further exploit the thing or things they seem to be doing. The part about community service I won't comment on since its unrelated, could be viewed as both an advantage and a disadvantage, depending on your preference.

And let's remember once again, it all more or less started way back in 2018 when Hamilton made comments about Ferrari doing some engine "trickery", one of the first moments in the hybrid PU era that someone has managed to dethrone Mercedes on their preferred field. And while Hamilton probably didn't have ill intentions with such a comment (although he is and has been an instrumental media tool in the past, the dude is clever and a successful champion for a reason that's not only his driving sills), media naturally picked up on it like crazy, they thrive for such moments since they net them mega clicks and advertising wank, the narrative was immediately formed and we had the cheating, tricked out Ferrari PU finally starting to eat into Merceses' territory, which was, according to the same media, of course just a product of ingenious engineering efforts, what else. As if they weren't and aren't using tricks now, as well as forever.

I honestly cannot wait for the season to start, it's going to indicate who was right far more than these pre season speculations are, and who knows, maybe it fills the many loud mouths in the sport with well... socks for a start, so we can enjoy some quietness.

[Sieper]

4.4kg of the stuff.

[Unc1eM0nty]

"The FIA and Scuderia Ferrari have agreed to a number of technical commitments that will improve the monitoring of all Formula 1 power units for forthcoming championship seasons as well as assist the FIA in other regulatory duties in Formula 1 and in its research activities on carbon emissions and sustainable fuels."

= community service

if you can't do the time don't do the crime