FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
toraabe
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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One thing you can do to trigger party mode is a combination of using overtake button and how fast the driver is pushing the throttle pedal. If pushing fast together with the overtake button, you will trigger party mode and so on . A lot of variables you can do

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henry
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bill shoe wrote:
18 Aug 2020, 01:26
zibby43 wrote:
18 Aug 2020, 01:07

Can’t select a lower setting in the race to save the PU though. That’ll have to be achieved with lift and coast. That’ll also help harvesting.
I have a vague understanding that most of the party-modes are achieved with electric turbo assist, plus aggressive timing. So one way around it is to have conservative (race) timing for the first 90% of throttle pedal travel, and aggressive (qualy) timing for the final 10% of throttle pedal travel. Regular usage of the final 10% could also be used to trigger the electric turbo drive.

Unless that is effectively banned by rules regarding torque demand vs. torque delivered. Not sure.
You’re right they can’t do that.

Up to maximum throttle pedal the power demanded must monotonically increase up to the max ICE only power, the software can choose how that power is achieved using a mix of ICE and MGU-K.

After full throttle the strategy software can choose the power level from ICE only up to and including Party/qualifying mode. There are some discrete steps in the choice involving ERS flow choices. My guess is that for drivability and tyre management there are short ramps between these power levels.

We know that the strategy software, at least for Mercedes, is adaptive. The choice of power level and duration can change from lap to lap.
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piast9
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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gruntguru wrote:
17 Aug 2020, 23:05
piast9 wrote:
17 Aug 2020, 21:39
I just wonder if proposed rules and/or ECU possibilities would allow for switching engine to party mode (or hammer time mode during the race) for single lap if you rev it over 13000 rpm just for short time?
The problem with revving that high is the engines are optimised for the 10-12k region and power drops off above that.
That's why I wrote about reving it only for short period of time. For example you hit 13k for a second once on the outlap, you lift the throttle pedal completely and the next time you press it again you have extra power for whole lap as the ECU remembered that high revs. In that way you don't break the ruling about linear response to the gas pedal.

63l8qrrfy6
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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For a bit more context - 33 years ago at the British GP Mansell overtook Piquet after continuously using his overtake button for several laps in the closing stages of the race. The other engine modes available were low power 'fuel saving' and normal race power. The overtake mode was reportedly worth about 100 hp.


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Phil
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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There's an interesting article on Auto-Motor-und-Sport, regarding that the FIA may be suspecting foul play in regards to the ERS and that some may have found a way to use more than the 120 kW.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... uchung-f1/
Offenbar hat der Verband einen Verdacht, dass einer oder mehrere beim Energiemanagement sich nicht an die Regeln halten. Für eine Routineuntersuchung sind die Bitten des FIA-Delegierten zu spezifisch. Zunächst einmal werden Ferrari, Honda, Mercedes und Renault daran erinnert, wie das Energiemanagement in Anhang 3 des Technischen Reglements definiert ist. Man hat dabei speziell auf die Hilfsstromkreise ein Auge geworfen. Zwei Sensoren messen die Energieströme in die Batterie und die MGU-K hinein und aus ihr heraus. Und die müssen nach Artikel 5.2.5 dem FIA-Datenlogger die nötigen Signale übermitteln, um überwachen zu können, dass die Energieströme regelkonform ablaufen.

Dann die Warnung: Jede Maßnahme oder ein System, das dafür erfunden wurde, absichtlich die elektrischen Gleichstrommessungen zur Überprüfung der Regeln zu verändern, wird als ernsthafter Bruch der Regularien betrachtet. Da klingt offenbar noch nach, wie Ferrari im letzten Jahr die Messung der Benzindurchflussmenge ausgetrickst haben soll. Dabei soll das Signal des Sensors so manipuliert worden sein, dass mehr Benzin eingespritzt werden konnte als an das FIA-Messgerät berichtet wurde.

Im weiteren Text der Technischen Direktive wird klar, wo die FIA mögliche Fallen vermutet. Und zwar an den Schnittstellen zwischen dem Hochspannungsnetz und den Hilfsstromkreisläufen mit weniger Spannung. Die Verbindungen von der Batterie zu diversen Steuergeräten, die das ERS-System überwachen, hängen in der Regel nicht am Hochspannungskreislauf. Und genau da ist es offenbar möglich, die Strommessung zu stören oder abzuändern. Das hätte dann den gleichen Effekt wie Ferraris mutmaßliche Manipulation der Durchflussmengenmessung. Man könnte über die MGU-K mehr Leistung in das System einspeisen als die erlaubten 163 PS.
Roughly translated;
The 4 engine suppliers have been advised how the energy management in attachment 3 of the technical regulations are defined and to be understood and that any attempt to bypass the sensors to manipulate the energy flow from the ERS are to be considered serious breaches of the regulations (similar to how Ferrari has been understood to have breached the regulations by tricking out the fuel sensors last year).

EDIT: This is in relation to the FIAs request of detailled schematics of the ERS by the 4 engine suppliers until August 21st and in regards to the newly issued technical directive TD/036-20 from August 4th.
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siskue2005
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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have they issued Official Technical directive regarding same mode in quly and race?
or is it just the letter issued by the FIA to teams regarding there might be TD from Spa onwards
I am confused, is it going to happen coz after the race we have not heard anything

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Sieper
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Those are two different things.

1 the TD to deliver to FIA full schematics of the ERS system

2 FIA likely banning qualy modes. But that is still to be worked Out and might not happen at Spa or anytime soon at all. Apparently also depending on what the teams think of how it will be implemented. They can still give their feedback on it.

Wynters
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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This could be quite interesting. Assuming the FIA aren't just fishing, obvious suspects are Mercedes (long term dominance) and Honda (years behind and now comfortably second best engine).

zibby43
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Wynters wrote:
18 Aug 2020, 19:56
This could be quite interesting. Assuming the FIA aren't just fishing, obvious suspects are Mercedes (long term dominance) and Honda (years behind and now comfortably second best engine).
The Motorsport.it article today pretty emphatically states that the TD was directed at Honda, and it's going to cost them about 30 horses.

"Adrian Newey's RB16 is the only single-seater that has not suffered the humiliation of the champion's voiceover in the Spanish GP. proving to have extremely interesting aerodynamic characteristics, useful to compensate for a lack of power of the Honda engine (about thirty horses) that had to bite a bit the brake after the latest technical directive of the FIA (TD 36/20), written to measure the Japanese power unit on the output of electricity from the MGU-K coming from the MGU-H."

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-te ... e/4859194/

Wynters
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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I'm naturally suspicious of the F1 press. I think Mercedes and Honda are the two most likely, but let's see what happens.

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Big Tea
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Wynters wrote:
18 Aug 2020, 20:23
I'm naturally suspicious of the F1 press. I think Mercedes and Honda are the two most likely, but let's see what happens.
A FIA tech man has recently gone to Renault, could there be any connection?
Might have taken him a while to figure it out
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dren
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How would you overrun the K when its power is capped? That'd be a pure breach of the regs.
Honda!

zibby43
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dren wrote:
18 Aug 2020, 20:51
How would you overrun the K when its power is capped? That'd be a pure breach of the regs.
I just want to make it clear before I state this that I’m not alleging anything against Honda.

But to answer your question, no one really thought of the clever system Ferrari was using to circumvent the very official fuel flow measurement sensor. And that was also a very clear breach of the regs.

In other words, who the heck knows what’s going on with these PUs? Certainly not the FIA lol!

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dren
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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zibby43 wrote:
18 Aug 2020, 20:59
dren wrote:
18 Aug 2020, 20:51
How would you overrun the K when its power is capped? That'd be a pure breach of the regs.
I just want to make it clear before I state this that I’m not alleging anything against Honda.

But to answer your question, no one really thought of the clever system Ferrari was using to circumvent the very official fuel flow measurement sensor. And that was also a very clear breach of the regs.
Yeah, It just sounds like a straight up breach, not some grey area, if this is the case. I'd be surprised if Honda would do such a thing. We'll see here soon!
Honda!

Wynters
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Big Tea wrote:
18 Aug 2020, 20:49
Wynters wrote:
18 Aug 2020, 20:23
I'm naturally suspicious of the F1 press. I think Mercedes and Honda are the two most likely, but let's see what happens.
A FIA tech man has recently gone to Renault, could there be any connection?
Might have taken him a while to figure it out
Interesting!