FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

[El Scorchio]

I dread to think of the fallout if the Mercedes turns out to be the only ‘clean’ PU of the bunch...

[Big Tea]

I'm naturally suspicious of the F1 press. I think Mercedes and Honda are the two most likely, but let's see what happens.

A FIA tech man has recently gone to Renault, could there be any connection?
Might have taken him a while to figure it out

Interesting!

Budkowski. Not saying he is doing anything wrong even if it is from him, but he knows what FIA can find and what he suspects is happening.

[zibby43]

I'm naturally suspicious of the F1 press. I think Mercedes and Honda are the two most likely, but let's see what happens.

A FIA tech man has recently gone to Renault, could there be any connection?
Might have taken him a while to figure it out

Interesting!

I believe he’s referring to Marcin Budkowski.

Edit: Didn’t see the above post.

But yeah, he had access to all the various teams’ designs at the FIA, to an extent, before taking his gardening leave and then joining Renault.

[RZS10]

Didn't Budkowski leave the FIA in 2017? His gardening leave was also very short ... you think he'd now finally say "team x did y 3.5 years ago" ?

[Wouter]

How would you overrun the K when its power is capped? That'd be a pure breach of the regs.

I just want to make it clear before I state this that I’m not alleging anything against Honda.

But to answer your question, no one really thought of the clever system Ferrari was using to circumvent the very official fuel flow measurement sensor. And that was also a very clear breach of the regs.

In other words, who the heck knows what’s going on with these PUs? Certainly not the FIA lol!

Just a thought. Very striking is that last year Mercedes was able to tell how Ferrari managed to influence the sensors.
How did they know that? Maybe they did it themselves the same way with the ERS?
Would RB have filed a protest against Ferrari if they themselves did the same with the ERS?
Last year, Honda had a reasonable "party mode". This year, however, not anymore, because they have chosen to run the engine for longer at more power during the race.

[Big Tea]

Didn't Budkowski leave the FIA in 2017? His gardening leave was also very short ... you think he'd now finally say "team x did y 3.5 years ago" ?

Not then, but he would have a good idea of what their capability is and what they would look for.
If I were in that position and at a team like Renault, and was asked what have they got we do not, I would have a good think along those lines.

I must stress I am not suggesting he would do anything wrong even if this were the case, Teams all protest as part of the game. As we did not hear of a protest, could it have come from an informal chat?
No reason to suggest it except that came out of the blue and Renault would seem the main beneficiary.

Its his job.

[Big Tea]

How would you overrun the K when its power is capped? That'd be a pure breach of the regs.

I just want to make it clear before I state this that I’m not alleging anything against Honda.

But to answer your question, no one really thought of the clever system Ferrari was using to circumvent the very official fuel flow measurement sensor. And that was also a very clear breach of the regs.

In other words, who the heck knows what’s going on with these PUs? Certainly not the FIA lol!

Just a thought. Very striking is that last year Mercedes was able to tell how Ferrari managed to influence the sensors.
How did they know that? Maybe they did it themselves the same way with the ERS?
Would RB have filed a protest against Ferrari if they themselves did the same with the ERS?
Last year, Honda had a reasonable "party mode". This year, however, not anymore, because they have chosen to run the engine for longer at more power during the race.

Did they know Ferrari influenced the sensors? I thought they just calculated the energy used at 'that' point was more than could be produced with the maximum allowed flow?

[Wouter]

I just want to make it clear before I state this that I’m not alleging anything against Honda.

But to answer your question, no one really thought of the clever system Ferrari was using to circumvent the very official fuel flow measurement sensor. And that was also a very clear breach of the regs.

In other words, who the heck knows what’s going on with these PUs? Certainly not the FIA lol!

Just a thought. Very striking is that last year Mercedes was able to tell how Ferrari managed to influence the sensors.
How did they know that? Maybe they did it themselves the same way with the ERS?
Would RB have filed a protest against Ferrari if they themselves did the same with the ERS?
Last year, Honda had a reasonable "party mode". This year, however, not anymore, because they have chosen to run the engine for longer at more power during the race.

Did they know Ferrari influenced the sensors? I thought they just calculated the energy used at 'that' point was more than could be produced with the maximum allowed flow?

Yes, they knew that and in what way and they told what they suspected / knew to RB and they then lodged a protest.

[TNTHead]

I think Binotto is right, we need more transparency. Or a much simpler rule set/engine formula, then the grey area is much smaller and PU convergence is also easier to accomplish. Now its impossible to police.

What if the leading PU maker is ahead not by a clear breach but by exploiting not one part of performance found in the grey area but at multiple aspects?
Then its no wonder every PU maker has something which is not within the spirit of the rules because runner ups need to exploit those areas as well. I dont know this is the case (who knows?) but I would not be surprised when all four PU makers have something.

If so one should make it 1) legal or 2) forbid it clearly with an easy instrument to monitor.
To quote Walter Sobchak: 'Once a plan gets too complex, everything can go wrong'

Interesting times ahead!

[Big Tea]

I think Binotto is right, we need more transparency. Or a much simpler rule set/engine formula, then the grey area is much smaller and PU convergence is also easier to accomplish. Now its impossible to police.

What if the leading PU maker is ahead not by a clear breach but by exploiting not one part of performance found in the grey area but at multiple aspects?
Then its no wonder every PU maker has something which is not within the spirit of the rules because runner ups need to exploit those areas as well. I dont know this is the case (who knows?) but I would not be surprised when all four PU makers have something.

If so one should make it 1) legal or 2) forbid it clearly with an easy instrument to monitor.
To quote Walter Sobchak: 'Once a plan gets too complex, everything can go wrong'

Interesting times ahead!

The alternative to being unable to enforce rules, is not to have them.( well, we must have some rules, but new ones)
It is probably time for a complete re examination of of the power train in total as technology has advanced way beyond the point they expected and patch up rules have just become a muddle.

[SiLo]

The issue is that the engines are becoming ever more road relevant with the move to EV. There will still be a huge transition to go through before every single car is an EV.

[Hoffman900]

It would be nice if they made the engine rules in line with the WEC ruleset and just allowed them to be uncorcked a bit.

This could lead to reciprocating technologies and potential to increase engine suppliers in both, while also pooling resources to police them.

I can think of several instances in the past where things like this happened, like Honda's Indy Car engine being detuned to be restricted for FIA / American LeMans racing.

Currently, the rules are so patchworked and complex that they are unenforceable. That's on the FIA, not the teams. Almost any organization that can't enforce a particular rule just strikes that rule out and doesn't enforce it, or cleans up the language. The FIA gives the appearance they don't know what the hell is happening and that they aren't even sure what they want F1 to be.

[djones]

It's always sad to see this kind of clutching at straws in an attempt to slow the team down that has just done the best job. Unlike Ferrari (or any team that is not 1st) Mercedes have no reason to cheat. The damage to the brand would be substantial for them.

I don't know how true it is, but apparently, Mercedes did not even use the top engine modes and were still 0.8 faster in the last qualifying session. A big part of me hopes they bring the rule in and Mercedes is even faster than before (relative to the other teams).

If they want to make engines more 'equal' and remove any ways to cheat why don't they just say: Everybody uses the same fuel, coolant and oil brand and quantity at the start of the race and qual. And all use the same battery pack.

[Big Tea]

It's always sad to see this kind of clutching at straws in an attempt to slow the team down that has just done the best job. Unlike Ferrari (or any team that is not 1st) Mercedes have no reason to cheat. The damage to the brand would be substantial for them.

I don't know how true it is, but apparently, Mercedes did not even use the top engine modes and were still 0.8 faster in the last qualifying session. A big part of me hopes they bring the rule in and Mercedes is even faster than before (relative to the other teams).

If they want to make engines more 'equal' and remove any ways to cheat why don't they just say: Everybody uses the same fuel, coolant and oil brand and quantity at the start of the race and qual. And all use the same battery pack.

They tried that with issuing their own ECU, but it soon slipped. It is as much a game of hide and seek as developing power.

[SiLo]

Are there any ideas at what teams could be doing with the ERS to skirt the rules? I thought they were pretty clear cut in what you can and cannot do.