2020 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, September 25 - 27

[i70q7m7ghw]

do you really need a steward to tell you that practicing start on a surface that has better relation to to the surface you are going to start on start finish straight is a racing advantage?

or you expected them to write absolutely all the points layed out here in this discussion in their official ruling statement? which clearly has little effect on convincing people that wording matters over the idea behind the rule, so why bother?

Where in the rules does it say you aren't allowed to gain an advantage from where you do your practice starts? You are making up a regulation that doesn't exist... The section in the Event Notes regarding practice starts is to dictate where it is safe to perform a practice start, it's highlighted in Event Notes because it can differ from track to track. There is no mention of not being able to gain a racing advantage from a practice start, surely the very point of a practice start is to try and gain a racing advantage?

And to your point, if it's not in the regulations it cannot be enforced, when gaps are found in the regulations the FIA have many different actions they can take such as technical directives. This is why the regulations are updated every year, and sometimes during the course of the season.

Finally, read the Event Notes for previous GPs, they make it very clear where practice starts can take place. If you listen to the radio comms, Hamilton asks "can I go further up? to the end of the pit wall?", the Event Notes for Mugello & Monza both state that practice starts on race day can take place at the end of pit wall as long as the driver leaves space on the left. The Event Notes for Sochi are not as specific, I think it was a fair call from Mercedes that what was allowed at previous events would be allowed here since the rules don't specifically exlcude it.

[notsofast]

Hamilton especially, seen as he asked the team if it was OK to do so and they said yes. As far as he was concerned he did everything by the book and to get hit with a double penalty and have the race taken away from him is a bit crazy. The stewards needed a bit of perspective and the punishment really didn't fit the crime.

I feel a lot about this the way I did about the Haas cars when they got pinged for those radio transmissions and pitting on a formation lap. That was a transgression of the rules as they are written but so what? It really just amounted to a strategy change and wasn't a big deal until the stewards got involved. That one wasn't even on any sort of safety grounds. It just felt like semantics to me.

I think you're arguing against yourself here. It is ridiculous that the team cannot communicate with the driver during the formation lap, but that's how the rule is written. The stewards applied the rule correctly in that case. I wish they had done the same yesterday.

[bosyber]

Well epo, I was late switching into the race, so first I heard was just before start that apparently (didn't yet know exactly what for at that point) HAM was maybe getting a penalty - thought it was a typical Hamilton sort of thing to happen (like 2007 China, odd stuff when getting close to a record), but didn't have any grounds to doubt it was indeed HAM, team not knowing the rules.

But, having looked at the discussion these last few pages, it does not really seem like the rule was al that clear. I do think it's quite obvious the rule/notes intended the drivers to use that spot just after the lights on the right where the SC is positioned for the race, and I do think a warning to Hamilton and the team that where he did those restarts isn't a very safe spot if someone were to have a problem while driving past him would have been appropriate (in whatever form, fine, reprimand, or something harsher). But, it isn't so unarguably clearly against the letter of those notes and or rules where he did it.

In the end for Hamilton and the team at most it cost him the 2nd place I believe - Hamilton is still a 1-2+FLAP ahead of Bottas, so yes, he lost 11, but it is not as if now it is a close fight, is it!?

But that Salo, leaking stuff to media well before we had original confirmation, and even seeming to suggest it would have been 12 penalty points done and thus a race ban, that's fishy stuff which the FIA has to be upset about. If you recall him being Finnish and involved with a casino - that's making it feel like a bad film-script, come on!

I think we can rightly call Hamilton a bit paranoid for thinking/saying he's being targeted by the FIA (Spa 2008 definitely was though but just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean you aren't being persecuted I guess, LOL!?!

edit: the 'but he got a racing advantage' people are being just a bit silly though. Every driver is doing a, or multiple, practice starts exactly so they can get the racing start as good as possible, some get it right, some don't, but we all expect them to try and get the circumstances as closely to the actual start as possible. In the end you still have to get the actual start done right, or all preparation is gone.

[cplchanb]

Hamilton and his team made mistakes and got punished, Hamilton apparently doesn't know anything about the rule book, so yeah also his fault. And if you give those time penalties then also give to penalties to his license. Because he now is playing oh i'm the victim and they are searching me, fo please.

You don't know anything of the rulebook either so I would shut my mouth if I were you. This rulebook is not in the rule book. Its in the race directors NOTES which is track specific. In addition, there is no specified area noted in said notes other than it being after the lights and on the right side so it was ambiguous to begin with. Get your facts straight before you start throwing false claims that have already been debunked

[cplchanb]

the aim of doing those starts where he did is to get better feel of how the clutch bites on a non-rubbered-in surface, it is easier to get wheel spin if practices before on a very grippy surface, which is why he didn't do it where the rest did, this gives a potential and quite substantial racing advantage

a fine would then mean that you basically bought some extra performance at little (relative) cost

hence stewards deciding on in race penalty, subtracting the added points was the right move IMO

A racing advantage? Can you send me a link to where that's mentioned in the stewards decision? As far as I know, the penalty was purely for being "out of position", there was zero mention of a racing advantage.

This is the wording in the official documents released by the stewards:

Breach of the FIA International Sporting Code Article 12.1.1 (i), failure to follow the
instructions contained in the Event Notes (v3) item 19.1, practice start location at
13:35 and Article 36.1 FIA Formula 1 Sporting Regulations.

The driver performed the practice start near the end, but directly in the pit exit. Art 36.1
requires drivers to use constant throttle and constant speed in the pit exit other than in
the place designated for practice starts in the Event Notes item 19.1., which is defined
as the place ”on the right hand side” after the pit exit lights (and is not part of the track
as defined by lines) which has been known to all competitors and used without
exception.

The part in brackets which I've highlighted in bold is NOT mentioned in 19.1 of the event notes, it was added by the stewards after when issuing the penalty.

do you really need a steward to tell you that practicing start on a surface that has better relation to to the surface you are going to start on start finish straight is a racing advantage?

or you expected them to write absolutely all the points layed out here in this discussion in their official ruling statement? which clearly has little effect on convincing people that wording matters over the idea behind the rule, so why bother?

Dude this isn't even a formation lap.... it a practice start to the grid!!!! Even his grid slot is drastically different. not to mention the tyres that he had on the car on his lap down to his slot isn't his starting tyres so your argument really has no bearing.

[jz11]

do you really need a steward to tell you that practicing start on a surface that has better relation to to the surface you are going to start on start finish straight is a racing advantage?

or you expected them to write absolutely all the points layed out here in this discussion in their official ruling statement? which clearly has little effect on convincing people that wording matters over the idea behind the rule, so why bother?

Where in the rules does it say you aren't allowed to gain an advantage from where you do your practice starts? You are making up a regulation that doesn't exist... The section in the Event Notes regarding practice starts is to dictate where it is safe to perform a practice start, it's highlighted in Event Notes because it can differ from track to track. There is no mention of not being able to gain a racing advantage from a practice start, surely the very point of a practice start is to try and gain a racing advantage?

And to your point, if it's not in the regulations it cannot be enforced, when gaps are found in the regulations the FIA have many different actions they can take such as technical directives. This is why the regulations are updated every year, and sometimes during the course of the season.

Finally, read the Event Notes for previous GPs, they make it very clear where practice starts can take place. If you listen to the radio comms, Hamilton asks "can I go further up? to the end of the pit wall?", the Event Notes for Mugello & Monza both state that practice starts on race day can take place at the end of pit wall as long as the driver leaves space on the left. The Event Notes for Sochi are not as specific, I think it was a fair call from Mercedes that what was allowed at previous events would be allowed here since the rules don't specifically exlcude it.

organizer and stewards job is to make sure all competitors can compete in equal conditions - which includes the practice start place, I asked rhetorically - is it possible here for every of 20 competitors to have a clear, not rubbered in spot, where to practice their start, the answer is no, so they designate where you can practice so everyone is equal in that respect, Lewis & co thought otherwise, which, very clearly according to stewards (I mean their decision to impose penalty) was against the whole point of section 19 in the notes, section delegated to pointing out where everyone is to practice their starts, AGAIN - 19 others got the jist, they did not...

I stop the discussion here, if this doesn't get the point across, nothing will

[El Scorchio]

Hamilton especially, seen as he asked the team if it was OK to do so and they said yes. As far as he was concerned he did everything by the book and to get hit with a double penalty and have the race taken away from him is a bit crazy. The stewards needed a bit of perspective and the punishment really didn't fit the crime.

I feel a lot about this the way I did about the Haas cars when they got pinged for those radio transmissions and pitting on a formation lap. That was a transgression of the rules as they are written but so what? It really just amounted to a strategy change and wasn't a big deal until the stewards got involved. That one wasn't even on any sort of safety grounds. It just felt like semantics to me.

I think you're arguing against yourself here. It is ridiculous that the team cannot communicate with the driver during the formation lap, but that's how the rule is written. The stewards applied the rule correctly in that case. I wish they had done the same yesterday.

Maybe a little! I did think that when I read it back. I guess to be clearer it technically WAS a breach of a rule, but only because of how the stewards decided to interpret the radio messages and apply them. On another day another set of stewards may have felt differently and done nothing (and I suppose that's the point with ALL these decisions we end up debating week after week. Different day different outcome. ) My grievance with the Haas thing is more that they decided 'pit and we'll switch tyres' was driver coaching. If that's the case then doesn't every pit stop that isn't taken at a pre planned moment and requires the pit wall to ask the driver to come in also go against the rules?

Anyway, I think I'm probably leading this off topic since it didn't happen in this race! It's more just exasperation as to how the rules and penalties can be applied sometimes in ways that don't seem to really make sense to a lot of people. (and I also desperately wanted to pick an example not involving you know who because I believe it happens to all the drivers at one time or another.)

[i70q7m7ghw]

are you really THAT thick? organizer and stewards job is to make sure all competitors can compete in equal conditions - which includes the practice start place, I asked rhetorically - is it possible here for every of 20 competitors to have a clear, not rubbered in spot, where to practice their start, the answer is no, so they designate where you can practice so everyone is equal in that respect, Lewis & co thought otherwise, which, very clearly according to stewards (I mean their decision to impose penalty) was against the whole point of section 19 in the notes, section delegated to pointing out where everyone is to practice their starts, AGAIN - 19 others got the jist, they did not...

I stop the discussion here, if this doesn't get the point across, nothing will

Explain to me why the Event Notes for the previous 2 GPs allow practice starts at the end of the pit wall? By your logic it should always be in the same place, but the previous 2 GPs allow drivers to use an area at the end of the pit wall on race day.

EDIT: The event notes for Silverstone actually allow drivers to use the starting grid at the end of practice, they can use any position they like as long as they wait for the car ahead to finish their practice start. This would appear to contradict your rule that all practice starts must happen in the same location so that no one driver or team can gain a racing advantage from the practice start location. Also, if I was going to write a regulation as you described, I'd probably write it exactly like that... all practice starts must happen in the same location so that no one driver or team can gain a racing advantage from the practice start location... that wasn't so hard was it?

[grubschumi13]

Look Hamilton failed to follow a provision in the event notes. There is nothing debatable there. Why is that when ever a decision does not favor Hamilton or disadvantages him, there is a sack them culture here or a witch hunt or suggestions of racism being at play. We saw it in Monza calls on how the punishment was not right, is stupid and should be scrapped, how it's FIA's fault for not spelling out for Hamilton yet other drivers were aware of it, how the rule should not have been applied in Hamilton's circumstance. In Austria, how Albon should not dare attempt to overtake Hamilton so it's his fault, how the the race stewards should conduct penalties. We get it, you are his biggest fans but have some impartiality. The rules are for everybody

Mika Salo did not issue the penalty unilaterally.

[214270]

Stewarding should be taken out of the hands of these randoms at the FIA and driver-approved personnel put in charge.

Imagine a well-respected racer a la ALO who’s well-travelled in his F1 career and has pissed everyone off (so has no real ties) being at the helm. ALO is just an example before anyone tells me he’s back racing in F1 next year

[cooken]

Look Hamilton failed to follow a provision in the event notes.

No, he didn't. That's the crux of the discussion here. The event notes as written and given to teams did not explicitly forbid drivers from doing practice starts from further down.

Does anyone know for sure whether teams actually had this v3 of the notes or if it really was changed on the spot in the stewards room?

Whatever the facts, this while situation is extremely clumsy and unprofessional, totally unfitting of the sport (or perfectly fitting depending on your level of jade).

[dans79]

Why is that when ever a decision does not favor Hamilton or disadvantages him, there is a sack them culture here or a witch hunt or suggestions of racism being at play.

The point is the FIA are inept, and incapable of doing the job they are tasked with properly on a regular basis.

Directives, event notes, and various other matters that have a direct impact on the race or championship should not be ambiguous and open for interpretation. They should be crystal clear and overly precise.

Monza was just another example of the FIA being incapable of doing their job properly. Instead of every light on the track being tied into a single button in the control center, It looks like they were still using mid-70s tech where they have to use a radio to call people to physically flip switches on the lights.

[SiLo]

So I want someone to explain to me if I am mad to think this - but should Sainz have also got some kind of reprimand or penalty for his reckless driving that led to his accident? He has purposefully gone full speed trying not to lose time through the bollards, had a big accident and then come back across the track endangering other peoples lives in the process?

I've been heavily disagreed with on Reddit, but I'm quite certain that the bollards are there so you enter the track safely again, and he has almost ignored it entirely.

Most people have said his penalty was his front wheel being smashed off, but I don't agree that the outcome of your actions should dictate whether you get a penalty or not.

[maxxer]

Stewarding should be taken out of the hands of these randoms at the FIA and driver-approved personnel put in charge.

Imagine a well-respected racer a la ALO who’s well-travelled in his F1 career and has pissed everyone off (so has no real ties) being at the helm. ALO is just an example before anyone tells me he’s back racing in F1 next year

Put ROS in charge of them Also let him replace Crofty same time

[cooken]

So I want someone to explain to me if I am mad to think this - but should Sainz have also got some kind of reprimand or penalty for his reckless driving that led to his accident? He has purposefully gone full speed trying not to lose time through the bollards, had a big accident and then come back across the track endangering other peoples lives in the process?

I've been heavily disagreed with on Reddit, but I'm quite certain that the bollards are there so you enter the track safely again, and he has almost ignored it entirely.

Most people have said his penalty was his front wheel being smashed off, but I don't agree that the outcome of your actions should dictate whether you get a penalty or not.

It would be harsh, but I would understand penalty points on his license.

I think the much bigger issue is the arrangement of the boards in that area, which promotes high speed slalom next to that wall jutting out which is prone to spitting the car back onto the track. Carlos should be excessively penalized for horrendous track/safety design. Yet again a large portion of the failing is on Masi.