2020 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, September 25 - 27

[notsofast]

can you point out on your map where the pit speed limiter ends

You might remember that cars were lined up at the end of the period when the race was red-flagged in Q2. They were all waiting for a traffic light that was about to go green. That light marks the end of the fast lane, and it is also where the pit speed limiter ends.

[dans79]

What I found rather odd was that you could go off at turn 2 then floor it through some bollards and rejoin the track at a much higher speed than those who took the corner legitimately, although as seen with Carlos Sainz, a slight misjudgement means you smack into a concrete wall and it`s race over.
How does a modern day track have such an odd, potentially dangerous area in this day and age! This part of the track will hopefully be changed for next year.

If you go back and watch the 2014 start, you will see that turn 2 had no curbs or bollards. Hence why even though Rosberg locked up and missed the turn he came out of the turn substantially in front of Hamilton. He could just floor it and keep going.

They exist now to try and prevent people from gaining an advantage by leaving the track. However like many things with the FIA, because they worked in the past as a hasty fix to an issue, surely they will work indefinitely. At work we call this the "next new shinny disease". Some people never want to revisit a decision to ensure its the best one going forward, they just want to move on to the next thing. The FIA does this a lot.

For example if you really wanted to make sure drivers didn't gain an advantage, you wouldn't put the curbs at the edge of the track. You would use them to frame where they have to re-enter the track. Thus the likelihood of a car becoming airborne from hitting the curbs is non-existent, and the the drivers risk damaging the floor by not re-joining the track in the appropriate way.

However, even when they do something like I mentioned above the still manage to shoot themselves in the foot. for example.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia- ... e/4481316/

The Mexican was especially annoyed because he had gone around the track limits bollard as the rules demanded.

But the FIA was unhappy because Perez rejoined ahead of cars that had been in front of him when he entered the corner, and therefore was deemed to have gained a lasting advantage.

In race notes sent to teams before the French Grand Prix, Masi had made it clear that even if drivers go around the track limits bollard, "the driver must only rejoin the track when it is safe to do so and without gaining a lasting advantage."

Imo, in the Perez's case the FIA should have placed curbs and bollards in a way that ensures a driver can't gain an advantage, not expect a driver to try and determine on the fly what constitutes a lasting advantage.

[PlatinumZealot]

organizer and stewards job is to make sure all competitors can compete in equal conditions - which includes the practice start place, I asked rhetorically - is it possible here for every of 20 competitors to have a clear, not rubbered in spot, where to practice their start, the answer is no, so they designate where you can practice so everyone is equal in that respect, Lewis & co thought otherwise, which, very clearly according to stewards (I mean their decision to impose penalty) was against the whole point of section 19 in the notes, section delegated to pointing out where everyone is to practice their starts, AGAIN - 19 others got the jist, they did not...

I stop the discussion here, if this doesn't get the point across, nothing will

Sooo.... What about the different grip levels on either side of the grid? By your logic they should put all the cars on the same side of the grid or alternatively clean the dirty side of the grid to make sure it is equal for everyone.

Practice start place is part of car setup. Of course the drivers want to set up the car to close as race conditions as possible. That is why they do qualifying runs at the end of FP3.

Besides if everybody does practice starts on the same sport a thick layer of rubber would form so the first guy will benefit the most and the last guy would actually make his cltuch setting worse. Haha what so equal about that?

[Sieper]

Funny you should mention that.

For everyone on the even side it certainly was a disadvantage. The pole time you can strive for. But being second or third. Fourth of fifth, nobody can know what time they will need to strive for. It is a crap shoot on tracks like this and certainly has an impact on where you finish.

[Ringleheim]

My goodness, what a boring race this was. Let's hope this track leaves the calendar soon.

[Big Tea]

Something I found strange, is Sebs crash in qualli.
He just had a big knock, but wanders out into the track to retrieve his front wing, which incidentally his team mate has just run over.

I don't recall a driver ever doing this before? They usually get behind the barrier. In fact, they are usually shepherded behind the barrier, but he walks on track and examines the main piece?
What would he be thinking? Especially as the other Ferrari has just destroyed it.

The foil hat explanation is he wanted to see something on it, or he did not want something seen on it.

The sensible answer is he wanted to clear the track, but he was out anyway. Head fuzzy due to the bump? or something 'wrong' suspected with his wing?

[i70q7m7ghw]

A. There is no such thing as "spirit of the rules". There are the rules and actions are either in accordance with them or they are not. Hamilton's actions were in accordance with the rule as it was written. That's it.

So what you're saying is that the idea behind the rule (what I referred to as "spirit of the rule") goes away immediately as soon as the ink dries? I've heard that from lawyers and people trying to bend said rules intentionally disregarding that there is any sort of rational thought why the rule was written in the first place

I don't dispute or even defend the way those 19.1 and 19.2 are written, I think I even said - they could have done it better, but I also said I know why the note is there at all, and yet again - 19 others also did, 1 did not

Hamilton went further down near the end:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/43%C2 ... 39.9641672
Which is still in the pitlane exit as defined by the race director's notes. Hence it was still legal. It was different, however. Doing it there was at least safer than elsewhere other than the usual spot - he made sure there was plenty of room to his left, as can be seen. The rules allow a driver to cross the line on to the track to go around a car in that location so everything was within the rules. Until Masi decided to get involved, of course.

can you point out on your map where the pit speed limiter ends and speculate to average speed F1 would be going by the stationary Hamilton in the point you indicated, not saying anyone actually passed him there, but just speculate... and then have a ground look at that place in google maps and consider that the drivers point of view from around half a meter above the ground and that his right/left is totally obscured by the barriers

and then tell me there is no danger at all with the spot he used for his practice start

But it's only you talking about what the spirit of this rule is, I've seen nothing official that says this was done because of gaining an advantage, give me a link to the official PR on this?

Also your point about it being unsafe, it's exactly what they do at other circuits which is probably why Hamilton's engineer thought it was okay. I've already shared the Event Notes from previous races showing this.

I've shared plenty of evidence that contradicts every defense you've made so far, but you've yet to share a single piece of evidence backing up your claims.

[pb6797]

Something I found strange, is Sebs crash in qualli.
He just had a big knock, but wanders out into the track to retrieve his front wing, which incidentally his team mate has just run over.

I don't recall a driver ever doing this before? They usually get behind the barrier. In fact, they are usually shepherded behind the barrier, but he walks on track and examines the main piece?
What would he be thinking? Especially as the other Ferrari has just destroyed it.

The foil hat explanation is he wanted to see something on it, or he did not want something seen on it.

The sensible answer is he wanted to clear the track, but he was out anyway. Head fuzzy due to the bump? or something 'wrong' suspected with his wing?

He's married - so after getting the knock on the head he was in default settings, "if you make a mess clear up after yourself"

[Big Tea]

Something I found strange, is Sebs crash in qualli.
He just had a big knock, but wanders out into the track to retrieve his front wing, which incidentally his team mate has just run over.

I don't recall a driver ever doing this before? They usually get behind the barrier. In fact, they are usually shepherded behind the barrier, but he walks on track and examines the main piece?
What would he be thinking? Especially as the other Ferrari has just destroyed it.

The foil hat explanation is he wanted to see something on it, or he did not want something seen on it.

The sensible answer is he wanted to clear the track, but he was out anyway. Head fuzzy due to the bump? or something 'wrong' suspected with his wing?

He's married - so after getting the knock on the head he was in default settings, "if you make a mess clear up after yourself"

HaHaHa, of course! should have known

[basti313]

A. There is no such thing as "spirit of the rules". There are the rules and actions are either in accordance with them or they are not. Hamilton's actions were in accordance with the rule as it was written. That's it.

So what you're saying is that the idea behind the rule (what I referred to as "spirit of the rule") goes away immediately as soon as the ink dries? I've heard that from lawyers and people trying to bend said rules intentionally disregarding that there is any sort of rational thought why the rule was written in the first place

I don't dispute or even defend the way those 19.1 and 19.2 are written, I think I even said - they could have done it better, but I also said I know why the note is there at all, and yet again - 19 others also did, 1 did not

Hamilton went further down near the end:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/43%C2 ... 39.9641672
Which is still in the pitlane exit as defined by the race director's notes. Hence it was still legal. It was different, however. Doing it there was at least safer than elsewhere other than the usual spot - he made sure there was plenty of room to his left, as can be seen. The rules allow a driver to cross the line on to the track to go around a car in that location so everything was within the rules. Until Masi decided to get involved, of course.

can you point out on your map where the pit speed limiter ends and speculate to average speed F1 would be going by the stationary Hamilton in the point you indicated, not saying anyone actually passed him there, but just speculate... and then have a ground look at that place in google maps and consider that the drivers point of view from around half a meter above the ground and that his right/left is totally obscured by the barriers

and then tell me there is no danger at all with the spot he used for his practice start

But it's only you talking about what the spirit of this rule is, I've seen nothing official that says this was done because of gaining an advantage, give me a link to the official PR on this?

Also your point about it being unsafe, it's exactly what they do at other circuits which is probably why Hamilton's engineer thought it was okay. I've already shared the Event Notes from previous races showing this.

I've shared plenty of evidence that contradicts every defense you've made so far, but you've yet to share a single piece of evidence backing up your claims.

No, they do not do it like this on other tracks. Mugello is the best example...you have a big triangle area where the kart track ends. There is the place for practice starts, it is well off the track. In Sotchi, there is no triangle, just a wall. Hamilton stopped right in the track, where others pass with 200km/h+ when coming from the intended test start area at the pit lights.

[Racer X]

I like how cocky Bottas was talking --- to the hatters haha when it was penalties given to Ham that gave him the win a few more laps and Max would have taken it from him. Delusional muppet...

[dans79]

No, they do not do it like this on other tracks.

Perhaps you have forgotten about this from last year!


Edit: Brazil is another good example!

[i70q7m7ghw]

No, they do not do it like this on other tracks. Mugello is the best example...you have a big triangle area where the kart track ends. There is the place for practice starts, it is well off the track. In Sotchi, there is no triangle, just a wall. Hamilton stopped right in the track, where others pass with 200km/h+ when coming from the intended test start area at the pit lights.

Have you read the Event Notes notes for Monza? It describes what Hamilton did at Sochi, and if you look at pictures of the circuit, you can see the location is similar.

18) Practice starts
18.1 During each free practice session, practice starts may only be carried out on the right-hand side after
the end of the Pit Wall but before the first dotted white line across the pit exit. Drivers wishing to carry
out a practice start should stop on the right in order to allow other cars to pass on their left.
18.2 During the time the pit exit is open for the race, practice starts may be carried out after the end of
the pit wall but before the second dotted white line across the pit exit. Drivers wishing to carry out a
practice start should stop on the right in order to allow other cars to pass on their left.
18.3 During these times any driver passing a car which has stopped to carry out a practice start may
cross the white line that is referred to in 19.1 below. Any driver crossing this line must move back to
the right of it as quickly as possible.
18.4 For reasons of safety and sporting equity, cars may not stop in the fast lane at any time the pit exit
is open without a justifiable reason (a practice start is not considered a justifiable reason).

[maxxer]

For all teams and drivers next time :

Driver :"Gosh golly i pressed the neutral button"
Engineer:"Thats ok just use the reset button and try to get back"

You can do a practice start then whereever you are

[jz11]

yes, Diesel, I didn't notice how very similar they are:
Monza:
length of the area less than 100m, straight line, good visibility, racing line on the other side of the track
Sochi:
Ham stopped probably around 300m after the pits, after a blind right hander, with racing line close to middle of the track(?)

almost identical situation there, I can't believe I didn't realize that before...
couple pics to illustrate how they are basically the same thing