[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[Thunder18]

The early days with the token system also limited what kind of catch up was allowed, so once Merc could keep one step ahead it was always going too be rosy for them. Merc wouldn’t give RBR an engine deal even when their customer teams were not getting the same spec PU as the themselves which is why Mclaren convinced Honda to join, so Honda joining late and with a terrible PU to begin with and with a token system that limited any significant progress.... it was exhausting to watch meanwhile the races were more often than not...boring. RBR were never going to admit that this years car was the issue, as they would’ve been more vocal if Honda were the issue.

[Just_a_fan]

have a down on Merc just because no one else did what they did.

Exactly, people forget that Mercedes put in a massive investment and are reaping the rewards. Red Bull could have made the effort to find a partner and invest in development. Instead, they just bad mouthed Renault having benefited from Renault's PU in the blown diffuser days.

I'm confused. RBR did find a partner and invest in them (Honda) after breaking up with Renault.

After how many years of bad-mouthing Renault? Investing (and I doubt RedBull put any money in to Honda's programme) in an engine programme several years after the rules have been written and implemented is always going to be problematic, isn't it?

Mercedes were quietly working on their PU for many months (years?) before the thing first ran in anger in Australia 2014. They spent a lot of money and burned the midnight oil creating their PU. But now people say "oh, it's terrible that Red Bull haven't got an engine that's as good as Mercedes's unit. The FIA should force Mercedes to give Red Bull an engine. Blah, blah."

Well, you reap what you sow.

[nzjrs]

Exactly, people forget that Mercedes put in a massive investment and are reaping the rewards. Red Bull could have made the effort to find a partner and invest in development. Instead, they just bad mouthed Renault having benefited from Renault's PU in the blown diffuser days.

I'm confused. RBR did find a partner and invest in them (Honda) after breaking up with Renault.

After how many years of bad-mouthing Renault? Investing (and I doubt RedBull put any money in to Honda's programme) in an engine programme several years after the rules have been written and implemented is always going to be problematic, isn't it?

Mercedes were quietly working on their PU for many months (years?) before the thing first ran in anger in Australia 2014. They spent a lot of money and burned the midnight oil creating their PU. But now people say "oh, it's terrible that Red Bull haven't got an engine that's as good as Mercedes's unit. The FIA should force Mercedes to give Red Bull an engine. Blah, blah."

Well, you reap what you sow.

This is a strange take from you JaF, I thought you were a bigger man than this.

[Just_a_fan]

I'm confused. RBR did find a partner and invest in them (Honda) after breaking up with Renault.

After how many years of bad-mouthing Renault? Investing (and I doubt RedBull put any money in to Honda's programme) in an engine programme several years after the rules have been written and implemented is always going to be problematic, isn't it?

Mercedes were quietly working on their PU for many months (years?) before the thing first ran in anger in Australia 2014. They spent a lot of money and burned the midnight oil creating their PU. But now people say "oh, it's terrible that Red Bull haven't got an engine that's as good as Mercedes's unit. The FIA should force Mercedes to give Red Bull an engine. Blah, blah."

Well, you reap what you sow.

This is a strange take from you JaF, I thought you were a bigger man than this.

What? Why? It's the reality of life - you get out what you put in. Mercedes put in a lot of effort, not just on the PU of course, and have gotten rewards from that. Red Bull were happy to take the wins back in the blown diffuser days - usually forgetting to mention the Renault lump that made it possible - and then publicly bad mouthed Renault when they didn't get a PU that was good enough. Where was Red Bull's investment in the current PU rules? What have Red Bull done to deserve any success in the current rule era? And as for people demanding that Merc be forced to give them a PU, well, that just defies belief.

[nzjrs]

After how many years of bad-mouthing Renault? Investing (and I doubt RedBull put any money in to Honda's programme) in an engine programme several years after the rules have been written and implemented is always going to be problematic, isn't it?

Mercedes were quietly working on their PU for many months (years?) before the thing first ran in anger in Australia 2014. They spent a lot of money and burned the midnight oil creating their PU. But now people say "oh, it's terrible that Red Bull haven't got an engine that's as good as Mercedes's unit. The FIA should force Mercedes to give Red Bull an engine. Blah, blah."

Well, you reap what you sow.

This is a strange take from you JaF, I thought you were a bigger man than this.

What? Why? It's the reality of life - you get out what you put in. Mercedes put in a lot of effort, not just on the PU of course, and have gotten rewards from that. Red Bull were happy to take the wins back in the blown diffuser days - usually forgetting to mention the Renault lump that made it possible - and then publicly bad mouthed Renault when they didn't get a PU that was good enough. Where was Red Bull's investment in the current PU rules? What have Red Bull done to deserve any success in the current rule era? And as for people demanding that Merc be forced to give them a PU, well, that just defies belief.

I mean your reply was part non sequitur insofar as the slate was wiped clean with Honda, part strawman "internet person demands Mercedes PU for RBR", and part "an eye for an eye leaves f1 blind".

This whole thing is egg on face of F1 and trying to say RBR deserves it doesn't remove the egg from F1s face, but maybe it makes you feel better about Mercedes?

The sport needs to be healthy to survive.

[tangodjango]

This is a strange take from you JaF, I thought you were a bigger man than this.

What? Why? It's the reality of life - you get out what you put in. Mercedes put in a lot of effort, not just on the PU of course, and have gotten rewards from that. Red Bull were happy to take the wins back in the blown diffuser days - usually forgetting to mention the Renault lump that made it possible - and then publicly bad mouthed Renault when they didn't get a PU that was good enough. Where was Red Bull's investment in the current PU rules? What have Red Bull done to deserve any success in the current rule era? And as for people demanding that Merc be forced to give them a PU, well, that just defies belief.

I mean your reply was part non sequitur insofar as the slate was wiped clean with Honda, part strawman "internet person demands Mercedes PU for RBR", and part "an eye for an eye leaves f1 blind".

This whole thing is egg on face of F1 and trying to say RBR deserves it doesn't remove the egg from F1s face, but maybe it makes you feel better about Mercedes?

The sport needs to be healthy to survive.

His basic point isn't invalid. Why didn't Red Bull invest something like 300-400 million in Viry to make the Renault engine competitive instead of throwing their toys out of the pram in 2015. They could have retained rights to modify the engine according to their needs and an option to purchase Viry if Renault pulled out. They would have reached 2020 level of relative engine performance years back. It is not the responsibility of Ferrari and Mercedes to produce a competitive power unit after investing hundreds of millions and sell it to RBR for a token amount. It is the FIA's responsibility for this mess. If Red Bull feel they deserve a competitive power unit they should have skin in the engine game like Mercedes/Ferrari. It is what it is. Just like Red Bull cut a side deal with Bernie to walk away with more money and effectively push the sport into a two tier formula and then complain non-stop when Mercedes and Ferrari outspent them. You can't have it both ways. You either put up or shut up that's how F1 has always worked.

[nzjrs]

Wow, a lot going on there.

[ispano6]

The negative press and haters will never acknowledge Honda even in success. They will say they didn't win on merit or this or that. It's that anti-Japanese arrogance that's tasteless and Honda can do without. When Gasly beat Hamilton to the line in Brazil, Brundle called it the Honda Donkey, despite the stallion that took first place. Catch my drift? If there was more positivity, and perhaps more exposure of that positive press and achievements Honda would have had more reason to stay. Even this forums Honda engine thread still has the 2017 news of Honda underestimated integration BS, not a word of how they built a race winning engine.

[etusch]

His basic point isn't invalid. Why didn't Red Bull invest something like 300-400 million in Viry to make the Renault engine competitive instead of throwing their toys out of the pram in 2015. They could have retained rights to modify the engine according to their needs and an option to purchase Viry if Renault pulled out. They would have reached 2020 level of relative engine performance years back. It is not the responsibility of Ferrari and Mercedes to produce a competitive power unit after investing hundreds of millions and sell it to RBR for a token amount. It is the FIA's responsibility for this mess. If Red Bull feel they deserve a competitive power unit they should have skin in the engine game like Mercedes/Ferrari. It is what it is. Just like Red Bull cut a side deal with Bernie to walk away with more money and effectively push the sport into a two tier formula and then complain non-stop when Mercedes and Ferrari outspent them. You can't have it both ways. You either put up or shut up that's how F1 has always worked.

I see some of forumers underestimate producing a PU. If it were that easy to built there would more engine supplier in formula 1. If it were that easy Redbull can bring another manufacturer into sport until 2022 instead of trying to produce it themself.
When they needed they produced an adapter to use past year's mgu-k to current years Renault engine. yea they did that but not mgu-k itself. Can you see the difference.

[Big Tea]

His basic point isn't invalid. Why didn't Red Bull invest something like 300-400 million in Viry to make the Renault engine competitive instead of throwing their toys out of the pram in 2015. They could have retained rights to modify the engine according to their needs and an option to purchase Viry if Renault pulled out. They would have reached 2020 level of relative engine performance years back. It is not the responsibility of Ferrari and Mercedes to produce a competitive power unit after investing hundreds of millions and sell it to RBR for a token amount. It is the FIA's responsibility for this mess. If Red Bull feel they deserve a competitive power unit they should have skin in the engine game like Mercedes/Ferrari. It is what it is. Just like Red Bull cut a side deal with Bernie to walk away with more money and effectively push the sport into a two tier formula and then complain non-stop when Mercedes and Ferrari outspent them. You can't have it both ways. You either put up or shut up that's how F1 has always worked.

I see some of forumers underestimate producing a PU. If it were that easy to built there would more engine supplier in formula 1. If it were that easy Redbull can bring another manufacturer into sport until 2022 instead of trying to produce it themself.
When they needed they produced an adapter to use past year's mgu-k to current years Renault engine. yea they did that but not mgu-k itself. Can you see the difference.

It took Honda at least 4 years to get it competitive, and they have specialists in every discipline they could need.
Not an easy job at all.

Something just sprung into my mind though.
Nisan is a 'partner' of Renault, and Renault F1 is being re branded to Alpine.

I wonder if Renault would consider a separate 'section' who took Renault standard F1 drive and made what ever small mode Red Bull requested, and call it Nisan F1?

They would get the same financial benefit as supplying direct, plus funding off Red bull to develop it and some advertising for Nisan


(also, any badmouthing from Red Bull would be to Nisan, not Renault. )

[tangodjango]

His basic point isn't invalid. Why didn't Red Bull invest something like 300-400 million in Viry to make the Renault engine competitive instead of throwing their toys out of the pram in 2015. They could have retained rights to modify the engine according to their needs and an option to purchase Viry if Renault pulled out. They would have reached 2020 level of relative engine performance years back. It is not the responsibility of Ferrari and Mercedes to produce a competitive power unit after investing hundreds of millions and sell it to RBR for a token amount. It is the FIA's responsibility for this mess. If Red Bull feel they deserve a competitive power unit they should have skin in the engine game like Mercedes/Ferrari. It is what it is. Just like Red Bull cut a side deal with Bernie to walk away with more money and effectively push the sport into a two tier formula and then complain non-stop when Mercedes and Ferrari outspent them. You can't have it both ways. You either put up or shut up that's how F1 has always worked.

I see some of forumers underestimate producing a PU. If it were that easy to built there would more engine supplier in formula 1. If it were that easy Redbull can bring another manufacturer into sport until 2022 instead of trying to produce it themself.
When they needed they produced an adapter to use past year's mgu-k to current years Renault engine. yea they did that but not mgu-k itself. Can you see the difference.

Where did I say they need to produce an engine? What they could have done was heavily invest the money in conjunction with Renault to get the PU upto speed and retain modification rights that would suit them. Renault can clearly engineer and build a high level PU as they have shown this year. What held then back was lack of investment, facilities and manpower hence they only managed to catch up in power in 2019 and power and reliability in 2020. If RBR had seen that Mercedes had dumped an outrageous amount of money in the new regs and Renault was not in a position to invest that much money they could have partnered with them through investment and gotten the engine side of things competitive as early as 2017-2018. It was easy enough to see as far back as 2015 that customer teams would never compete for the WDC. They chose a different route and if it had worked out with Honda extending till 2025 then it would have been fair play to them because Honda has done a sterling job after the McLaren disaster and the Honda engine definitely would have put them in championship contention by next year if their chassis & aero operation was up to scratch (which it isn't). In the situation I outlined they would not have been dependent on Honda staying or pulling out. Now you can say they are an energy drinks company so their is no logic in investing to become a stakeholder in an engine operation and you'd be right. But that is the reality F1 has always been either put up or shut up. When standard engines ruled the roost Red Bull spent more than anyone and with their superior aero shut the competition up. When the formula changed to an engine one Mercedes did the same. No one owes Red Bull a competitive PU because they won in an era when the PU's were equalised. The engine situation is huge mess but that's not new it's been apparent since mid 2014 at least. If Red Bull are in it for the long haul they should have realized that and played their cards accordingly. Do you see the difference between building an engine and investing heavily to help their engine partner get up to scratch while retaining customization rights thereby making it pretty much a factory team situation?

[etusch]

Where did I say they need to produce an engine? What they could have done was heavily invest the money in conjunction with Renault to get the PU upto speed and retain modification rights that would suit them. Renault can clearly engineer and build a high level PU as they have shown this year.

I started my comment by saying some forumers, so you may not said everything I commented. But you are one of them. When redbull wanted some packing changes from HOnda, honda engineers said that it will make negative affect on the engine or when it is appliably honda made it. Maybe they didn't have chance to do this with renault when they were working with them, or may be they had. I don't know. What I want to say is that; modification right is not what they needed, but what they needed is what they have with honda. I don't know if they will have it or not with renault.

[Just_a_fan]

part strawman "internet person demands Mercedes PU for RBR",

Members of this forum have posted that very demand. Not a straw man - a real man (or woman).

[Espresso]

Exactly, people forget that Mercedes put in a massive investment and are reaping the rewards. Red Bull could have made the effort to find a partner and invest in development. Instead, they just bad mouthed Renault having benefited from Renault's PU in the blown diffuser days.

I'm confused. RBR did find a partner and invest in them (Honda) after breaking up with Renault.

After how many years of bad-mouthing Renault? Investing (and I doubt RedBull put any money in to Honda's programme) in an engine programme several years after the rules have been written and implemented is always going to be problematic, isn't it?

Mercedes were quietly working on their PU for many months (years?) before the thing first ran in anger in Australia 2014. They spent a lot of money and burned the midnight oil creating their PU. But now people say "oh, it's terrible that Red Bull haven't got an engine that's as good as Mercedes's unit. The FIA should force Mercedes to give Red Bull an engine. Blah, blah."

Well, you reap what you sow.

That's kinda weird one-sided response.
Renault scr*we'd up und f*cked a lot of times. Promising a lot and delivering nothing.
Then as they got their own team degraded RBR to a third tier customer with the attitude."get the engine and that's it. We put the money in our chassis as RBR seems to be much better then us.So we need to gain there.."

Why would RBR put money in the engine? To help the Renault factory team?

Renault used RBR to their convenience. It is what it is. Let's just get on and not live in the past.

[diffuser]

With this PU come to the end of it regulation life, think it a little late to planning to build a new version of this PU. Also hindsight is 2020. Also Renault allowed RBR to rebrand their PU Austin Martin in the past. So the whole Nissan thing isn't needed.

I maintain, their not winning cause the chassis isn't fast enough. Nothing to do with the PU.