Silly Season 2020/2021 (starting with silliness in 2019)

[WaikeCU]

You say Silly Season right?

It will be Verstappen-Kvyat!

Why? Because Red Bull comes knocking on Renault's door again and wants another Renault engine partnership. Renault hasn't forgotten they left with banging doors, only to crawl back like a pup, so therefor they say YES, but with a much higher price tag on the engine deal. They can get a better less expensive deal, IF they put Kvyat in that Red Bull and rebrand it to Red Bull-Lada.

[Racer X]

Between Nico and Perez I don't see RedBull taking the slower out of pace driver who's rusty and will need to take time to pick up the speed.

It's one thing for him to be just as fast as Stroll. But even with a proper race weekend I don't think he would have been. As fast as Sergio because in the seasons(when they were team mates) prior when he drove with Perez he wasn't as fast as Perez. Sure Silverstone equalling and then surpassing Lance I think it's the minimum. Because Stroll is only going as fast as the car goes. It's like with Albon the car can't go any slower which is why he can beat Latiffi and Vettel. But the distance between Sergio and Hulk in the same car was going to always be the same distance between them that they have always had. Just like Daniel Ricciardo was faster then Hulkenberg.

I see no scenario where anyone takes Hulk over Pérez.



But that's IF RedBull doesn't keep its own driver's....

I think RedBull isn't delaying because they can't make up their mind between Hulkenberg or anyone else... Hahaha imagine that. I think they are taking their time because they can't decide over not taking one of their current driver's.

Which is why they are giving Yuki a test.
They might see something in Yuki enough to put him in the Alfa NOW and then keep Albon drop Kyviat and just kind of invest another year in their own program. I think RedBull is going to be stubborn and race their own program.

But if they do take an outside driver....

They won't take the slower rusty one.

In interview's Hulk has said "Teams know I'm available"

And Perez has said he's talking to his options.

So Perez is negotiating with Multiple teams.

Haas and Alfa(maybe). . . Yes obviously but you delay and stall for time if you've also got a call from RedBull and I think the other teams will understand.

Perez is the best available option for all teams right now.

Hulk was slower and he's rusty.

[Manoah2u]

I also prefer to have Perez alongside max, and i do believe it would be a massively strong pairing. However, I think, with the situation @ RB right now not in 'the best' - not a signed engine as of 2022, and IF they will 'buy' the honda engine, it remains to be seen how well that'll go, and since RBR is in no means 'dependant' of Checo as they have their own wealth, I don't expect that to happen from a business point of view, not neccesarily a performance point of view. RBR needs performance, checo not neccesarily, even though the obvious thing is that his chance to WIN a GP with RBR is fairly high, and fairly low with HAAS.

The thing is, again, Checo will have a much more beneficial situation 'businesswise' @ Haas.
Ideally, i'd like to see Checo and Hulk @ Haas if either signs there, but i don't think that will happen.

I'd love/hope to see Verstappen - Perez @ Red Bull Racing, but i'm expecting Verstappen - Hulkenberg.

That said, it might be wise for RedBull to actually sign Perez, to 'calculate in' the reasonable possibility that Max decides to bounce to Mercedes or AstonMartin.
Should Max leave, then they have atleast a quick and experienced driver. Perhaps they'd be able to 'snatch' Alonso or Schumacher (if he's any good) if the situation would call for it.

Either way, it's been mentioned RBR are open for outsiders, and to me, this indicates they'll actually do that since they have NEVER mentioned being open to that ever since what, 2009?
Albon is not giving them reason to reconcider. The 'sad' part of it for a driver like Tsunoda is because of Albon's inability to 'live up to the task', that it might actually block his entry potential into F1 as i'm highly doubtfull that Tsunoda would be chosen over Albon @ Alpha Tauri, not in the least because of likely clauses in their respective contracts.

[LHamilton]

Between Nico and Perez I don't see RedBull taking the slower out of pace driver who's rusty and will need to take time to pick up the speed.

It's one thing for him to be just as fast as Stroll. But even with a proper race weekend I don't think he would have been. As fast as Sergio because in the seasons(when they were team mates) prior when he drove with Perez he wasn't as fast as Perez. Sure Silverstone equalling and then surpassing Lance I think it's the minimum. Because Stroll is only going as fast as the car goes. It's like with Albon the car can't go any slower which is why he can beat Latiffi and Vettel. But the distance between Sergio and Hulk in the same car was going to always be the same distance between them that they have always had. Just like Daniel Ricciardo was faster then Hulkenberg.

I see no scenario where anyone takes Hulk over Pérez.



But that's IF RedBull doesn't keep its own driver's....

I think RedBull isn't delaying because they can't make up their mind between Hulkenberg or anyone else... Hahaha imagine that. I think they are taking their time because they can't decide over not taking one of their current driver's.

Which is why they are giving Yuki a test.
They might see something in Yuki enough to put him in the Alfa NOW and then keep Albon drop Kyviat and just kind of invest another year in their own program. I think RedBull is going to be stubborn and race their own program.

But if they do take an outside driver....

They won't take the slower rusty one.

In interview's Hulk has said "Teams know I'm available"

And Perez has said he's talking to his options.

So Perez is negotiating with Multiple teams.

Haas and Alfa(maybe). . . Yes obviously but you delay and stall for time if you've also got a call from RedBull and I think the other teams will understand.

Perez is the best available option for all teams right now.

Hulk was slower and he's rusty.

In regards to Hulkenberg being slower than Perez, you haven't done your research properly. I'd say in most metrics Hulkenberg beats Perez. You just look at the outliers in terms of podium and the amounts of points gathered without looking into context and other variables.

What i would give Perez tho, that Hulkenberg seem to lack, is that of being rushless. When fighting in the midfield, it's easier to score points and doing that little bit extra, if you have rushlessness to pass people in a, say 60-40 duel. This also goes for when trying to defend against people. Let's take Raikkonen for instance. Raikkonen plays the procentage game, where he goes for overtakes when he deem them not to be to risky, maybe 70-30/80-20. Others, plays the procentage game more "risky", and goes for overtakes and challanges that are more risky. In doing so, if they succeed, they have better chance to score points. I would say Perez leans more towards playing a more risky procentage game, whereas Hulkenberg, much like Kimi, plays a procentage game that is more riskfree. The downside of playing it more risk averse is that if you ever find yourself behind another car and don't have massive delta over him, you are most likely stuck there.

So what I would say; Perez might be faster in a tight midfield battle, whereas Hulkenberg would be more suited to be up infront and when he has space. So ideally, Red Bull would go for Hulkenberg, imo, since he has more of a raw speed compared to Perez and being out infront means less traffic. After all, Hulk did out-qualify Perez 3-0 in their seasons together (12-7, 10-9, 12-9). And 2014 & 2016 were more one-sided in Hulks favour (in terms of qualifying lap times difference) than what Ricciardo managed in 2019 vs Hulkenberg.

Besides, I thought people had learned from the Hamilton-Button situation when it comes to points and podiums. Button got more points AND more podium during their three year spell. In terms of podium, it was; (Ham)9-7(But), 6-12, 7-6, equalling to 22-25, or, 25-22 in Buttons favour.

So just because you managed to gather more points and more podiums, doesn't mean that you are the faster driver. That being said, I think the difference between Perez and Hulkenberg is quite small. So small infact, that it becomes fruitless in trying to point out who's the faster. Each driver has certains things that they do best, and when these circumstances falls in line in a race, they excel.

[ringo]

Perez is a higher pedigree driver than Hulk. Hulk's track record cannot be just based on back luck. There is a reason why hasn't got a podium so far. Perez will guarantee podiums and even a opportunistic win if the chance is available.
I even beleive there will be races where he will have faster race pace than Max, and if max crashes too much if he is under pressure Perez can beat him over a year.
Max does not know what pressure is. When he has a car to challenge, or even a driver that isnt from the same stable of driver development he may just try too hard or be perplexed.

[JordanMugen]

Russell may yet be available. If so, Red Bull would be unwise to sign Perez or Hulkenberg too early, when the British ace may be on the market (Mercedes illogically renewing Bottas would this time be costly, and make them lose their young driver talent for good!).

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-ru ... 1/4892301/

[NathanOlder]

Russell may yet be available. If so, Red Bull would be unwise to sign Perez or Hulkenberg too early, when the British ace may be on the market (Mercedes illogically renewing Bottas would this time be costly, and make them lose their young driver talent for good!).

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-ru ... 1/4892301/

Russells contract runs as long as Bottas, so theres no reason for Russell to leave. George could use RedBull as leverage though. If RedBull contact him, then George shows it to Toto. Toto then has extra pressure to put George in at Mercedes or risk losing him for 2022.

[Racer X]

So what I would say; Perez might be faster in a tight midfield battle, whereas Hulkenberg would be more suited to be up infront and when he has space. So ideally, Red Bull would go for Hulkenberg, imo, since he has more of a raw speed compared to Perez and being out infront means less traffic. After all, Hulk did out-qualify Perez 3-0 in their seasons together (12-7, 10-9, 12-9). And 2014 & 2016 were more one-sided in Hulks favour (in terms of qualifying lap times difference) than what Ricciardo managed in 2019 vs Hulkenberg.

So if things are easy Hulkenberg will be fine and they are hard he won't be.

Out qualifying Sergio isn't hard to do. He has always opted to work on Race/Setup from free practice 1 to free practice 3 and even during Qualifying on some races frustrating Force India to the point where they actually have said that he pushes too much for race day set up.

With the rules being changed to the single engine mode... You can no longer set up for Qualifying and then run something different during the race. So this puts everyone in the same boat that Perez had always been. So what ever Qualifying set up edge Hulkenberg might have had doesn't exist anymore.

Also you still have to go and beat Perez on Sunday. Which is where Hulkenbergs "raw speed" fails him he doesn't manage his tires as good as others he burns out sooner and then towards the end of each set is running slower so yes he has a couple laps where he's faster but overall over the entire race weekend he doesn't *have* the faster race time. So even tho (Sergio) is doing magnificent tire management during the entire race he will still go and do "risky" overtakes and make them stick without flat spotting his tires or burning his breaks.
Which is something that other driver's don't seem to be able to do.

Driver's like Hamilton Vettel Alonso have always been able to make that kind of overtake. In risky situations.
For example: (a driver who teamed with Niko)
Ricciardo is also more consistent with tire management and has faster lap times on Sunday overall which is important. We've all seen random driver's do a "fastest lap" only to finish the race P12 or something. Your over all race time is what matters. It seems like Niko can be fast for 2 or 3 laps but then his speed drops because he's got no tires. Teams are going to look at the way driver's finish on Sunday .... So as much as I respect Niko races are won on Sunday. Also you need to have the balls to make those risky overtakes if you're only taking the easy overtakes are you really racing? Also Perez Is not just attempting risky overtakes he's making this stick and NOT damaging his tires or breaks (I know I say this twice but it's impressive) look at Albon attempting overtakes and not sticking them and damaging his tires. But he has the balls to try Niko doesn't even try.

I've said this about Niko many times.
Hes either trying really hard and he's mediocre so then he doesn't belong in an F1 Car or hes holding back in which case he doesn't belong in an F1 Car. I'm not a fan of drivers who don't risk it. Except Maldonado that guys an idiot.

Anyways...

So many times Perez has gone from Qualifying P15 or less and finishing in the top 5. Where as Niko can drop from P5 to P15 in race because of tire management.

Even more impressive and disappointing.
Niko can go from P3 and finish below the Top 5 while Sergio can qualify below the top 10 and finish on the podium.


I'm sorry but it's not about being fastest Saturday.... It's where you end on Sunday and the points and Trophy's.

It's what the teams want.

That fan favorite b*lol sh*t is irrelevant.

Nobody "deserves" a podium you earn it.
You take it....

[DChemTech]

I agree with Hamilton here; I think Nico is slightly more pacy and definitely more stable under regular conditions - he just sucks at seizing opportunities. If that's what you are looking for, you need to hire Perez indeed. But then the real question is also, is that what RB needs? Because with that also comes a driver that may be a bit more aggressive towards his teammate, possibly choosing individual success over team results. With Nico, I guess that will be less the case. And I think that's the reason why RB would prioritize Hulk over Perez. Clearly, it's their intention to make Max the next champion. And to achieve that, you need a Bottas in the other car, not a Rosberg.

[Racer X]

I agree with Hamilton here; I think Nico is slightly more pacy and definitely more stable under regular conditions - he just sucks at seizing opportunities. If that's what you are looking for, you need to hire Perez indeed. But then the real question is also, is that what RB needs? Because with that also comes a driver that may be a bit more aggressive towards his teammate, possibly choosing individual success over team results. With Nico, I guess that will be less the case. And I think that's the reason why RB would prioritize Hulk over Perez. Clearly, it's their intention to make Max the next champion. And to achieve that, you need a Bottas in the other car, not a Rosberg.

So if they were to race Hulkenberg "so hard" (so NOT under regular conditions) he won't be fast which is what Lewis wants because he won't be under regular conditions against Bottas Max and Hamilton.....


It sounds to me like Lewis is scared of Perez and Max driving a pair of Redbull's next year chasing him down one with speed the other with tire strategy and Hamilton without DAS...


Imagine having to take care of your tires scared of Perez running you down in the final ten laps all while you have Max right behind you. You'd have to chose between doing a 2 stop strategy hoping Max doesn't undercut you or risking not being fast enough to stay ahead of Perez because he pushed you to take care of your tires and either way you're going to lose to one of the RedBulls....


Hamilton voting for Hulk is basically him saying who he's scared of.

This would just favor Max if you can beat Perez and Perez makes Hamilton have to nurse his tires even more because of mind games... Suddenly you can just do a 2 stop force Hamilton into a 2 Stop and then beat* Perez on raw speed.

RedBull 1, 2 or 1, 3 becomes possible...

BUT sure.... Hahahaha...
True all solid points.

Except Helmut Marko just stated that Max can beat any team mate. Meaning they don't think Perez could beat Max.

Haha I guess 2020 would be the year where you prioritize the slower driver because he's slower. Literally any other year teams take the faster driver because he's faster but. I see your argument Hulkenberg is slower and that's what makes him the better choice.

Still it's up to Helmut & Horner who apparently think Max can beat anyone.

Forget having a Rosberg next to Max.
I think they believe they could have Hamilton and Max would win.

Imagine that picking a driver because he's less aggressive slower and docile.


So you think they are looking for a Massa not a Bottas in that case.

I also want to point out that Max isn't scared of Perez. Unlike other driver's Vettel Alonso Hamilton who have all chosen slower team mates to run with them. Im slowly becoming a Max fan.

Hahaha imagine that letting Hamilton not only pick his team mate but also his Rival's...

Max and Perez would be fast.... Max would become Champion with Perez running down the Mercedes pair.

Max is just as good as Perez on tires so amazingly they could force everyone to have to try a one stop....

They would fail and Max would probably beat Perez and take the Championship.

[tangodjango]

I agree with Hamilton here; I think Nico is slightly more pacy and definitely more stable under regular conditions - he just sucks at seizing opportunities. If that's what you are looking for, you need to hire Perez indeed. But then the real question is also, is that what RB needs? Because with that also comes a driver that may be a bit more aggressive towards his teammate, possibly choosing individual success over team results. With Nico, I guess that will be less the case. And I think that's the reason why RB would prioritize Hulk over Perez. Clearly, it's their intention to make Max the next champion. And to achieve that, you need a Bottas in the other car, not a Rosberg.

So if they were to race Hulkenberg "so hard" (so NOT under regular conditions) he won't be fast which is what Lewis wants because he won't be under regular conditions against Bottas Max and Hamilton.....


It sounds to me like Lewis is scared of Perez and Max driving a pair of Redbull's next year chasing him down one with speed the other with tire strategy and Hamilton without DAS...


Imagine having to take care of your tires scared of Perez running you down in the final ten laps all while you have Max right behind you. You'd have to chose between doing a 2 stop strategy hoping Max doesn't undercut you or risking not being fast enough to stay ahead of Perez because he pushed you to take care of your tires and either way you're going to lose to one of the RedBulls....


Hamilton voting for Hulk is basically him saying who he's scared of.

This would just favor Max if you can beat Perez and Perez makes Hamilton have to nurse his tires even more because of mind games... Suddenly you can just do a 2 stop force Hamilton into a 2 Stop and then beat* Perez on raw speed.

RedBull 1, 2 or 1, 3 becomes possible...

BUT sure.... Hahahaha...
True all solid points.

Except Helmut Marko just stated that Max can beat any team mate. Meaning they don't think Perez could beat Max.

Haha I guess 2020 would be the year where you prioritize the slower driver because he's slower. Literally any other year teams take the faster driver because he's faster but. I see your argument Hulkenberg is slower and that's what makes him the better choice.

Still it's up to Helmut & Horner who apparently think Max can beat anyone.

Forget having a Rosberg next to Max.
I think they believe they could have Hamilton and Max would win.

Imagine that picking a driver because he's less aggressive slower and docile.


So you think they are looking for a Massa not a Bottas in that case.

I also want to point out that Max isn't scared of Perez. Unlike other driver's Vettel Alonso Hamilton who have all chosen slower team mates to run with them. Im slowly becoming a Max fan.

Unfortunately your argument (which is rather nonsensical) falls flat because it's always been Max running away from facing the challenge of Lewis at Mercedes.

[Racer X]

Unfortunately your argument (which is rather nonsensical) falls flat because it's always been Max running away from facing the challenge of Lewis at Mercedes.

That's never been a possibility don't be nonsensical. RedBull would not allow that's to happen and Mercedes has never searched out Max.

Also Max hasn't been available....



Max isn't scared of Hamilton.

Max really would beat Perez and anyone really.


--- I'ma Max fan.... Hahaha...---.


What's nonsensical to me is arguing that Hulkenberg is the right man for the job because he's slower and docile.

When clearly RedBull has that in Albon or they would not be looking for a replacement.

Even tho I still don't think they will get some one from outside their academy.....

If they do they will not get the slower one for being slow...

Lol


Max can beat Perez

But they will probably still end up with Albon or Yuki.

I'm not arguing that RedBull Will take Perez....

I'm arguing that if they do take some one outside of their academy it wont be the Hulkenberg.

[LHamilton]

So what I would say; Perez might be faster in a tight midfield battle, whereas Hulkenberg would be more suited to be up infront and when he has space. So ideally, Red Bull would go for Hulkenberg, imo, since he has more of a raw speed compared to Perez and being out infront means less traffic. After all, Hulk did out-qualify Perez 3-0 in their seasons together (12-7, 10-9, 12-9). And 2014 & 2016 were more one-sided in Hulks favour (in terms of qualifying lap times difference) than what Ricciardo managed in 2019 vs Hulkenberg.

So if things are easy Hulkenberg will be fine and they are hard he won't be.

Out qualifying Sergio isn't hard to do. He has always opted to work on Race/Setup from free practice 1 to free practice 3 and even during Qualifying on some races frustrating Force India to the point where they actually have said that he pushes too much for race day set up.

With the rules being changed to the single engine mode... You can no longer set up for Qualifying and then run something different during the race. So this puts everyone in the same boat that Perez had always been. So what ever Qualifying set up edge Hulkenberg might have had doesn't exist anymore.

Also you still have to go and beat Perez on Sunday. Which is where Hulkenbergs "raw speed" fails him he doesn't manage his tires as good as others he burns out sooner and then towards the end of each set is running slower so yes he has a couple laps where he's faster but overall over the entire race weekend he doesn't *have* the faster race time. So even tho (Sergio) is doing magnificent tire management during the entire race he will still go and do "risky" overtakes and make them stick without flat spotting his tires or burning his breaks.
Which is something that other driver's don't seem to be able to do.

Driver's like Hamilton Vettel Alonso have always been able to make that kind of overtake. In risky situations.
For example: (a driver who teamed with Niko)
Ricciardo is also more consistent with tire management and has faster lap times on Sunday overall which is important. We've all seen random driver's do a "fastest lap" only to finish the race P12 or something. Your over all race time is what matters. It seems like Niko can be fast for 2 or 3 laps but then his speed drops because he's got no tires. Teams are going to look at the way driver's finish on Sunday .... So as much as I respect Niko races are won on Sunday. Also you need to have the balls to make those risky overtakes if you're only taking the easy overtakes are you really racing? Also Perez Is not just attempting risky overtakes he's making this stick and NOT damaging his tires or breaks (I know I say this twice but it's impressive) look at Albon attempting overtakes and not sticking them and damaging his tires. But he has the balls to try Niko doesn't even try.

So many times Perez has gone from Qualifying P15 or less and finishing in the top 5. Where as Niko can drop from P5 to P15 in race because of tire management.

Nobody "deserves" a podium you earn it.
You take it....

"So if things are easy it will be fine for Hulkenberg?". It has not anything to do with something being easy. It's about choosing when to overtake, when to defend and how hard you do it. Raikkonen is a world champion, almost multiple, with similar approach. So you can't really argue that it wouldn't work being out in front. Besides, we are not talking about massive amounts of difference. It might be that one driver that you are trying to overtake that will make or break the race, or defending from, so you don't get stuck behind him heaps amounts of time.

The fact that qualifying modes have changed won't do anything to the qualifying pace. It affects both cars, so I don't see a world were one car would benefit more than the other. It's about engine modes, not setups.

In terms of tyres, I do agree with you and so do Hulkenberg himself. He admitted that Perez is better than him in terms of perserving the tyres. But in the latter days (maybe 2017 onwards due to downforce changes & Pirelli being more conservative) it feels like perserving tyres is less important than it was in the beginning of the Pirelli era when the tyres would fall of quicker. I would've liked to see Hulkenberg - Perez in these types of cars and see how it goes.

If we look at the metrics average race position and median race position, we find that Hulkenberg wins average race position in 2014, but loses to Perez in 2015 and 2016. In regards to the median race position, we find that Hulkenberg comes on top in all of the years they raced eachother, pointing to spikes being in favour of Perez (be it either Perez getting a podium/higher result, or Hulkenberg having a one off race). However, these metrics are far from perfect, since they only take into consideration the races were both have finished. And if we look at the amounts of DNFs/DNSs, Hulkenberg has 12 DNFs and 1 DNS to Perez's 6 DNFs and 1 DNS. There might've been situations where one driver benefitted statisticlly from DNFing, or vice verse.

But this is the problem when you look at statistics. It's not the end of the discussion, it's the beginning. It can only tell you so much. It can't tell you the whole story. The problem with most people is that they point to podiums and points gathered and say "Hah! Look, he has more of these so obviously he is the better driver.", whereas it's not that simple. My Button-Hamilton example is proof of that.

And in regards to the "we have seen Perez finishes in the top 5 when he has qualified 15th or lower" is just a lie. It has happend twice (technically once), both in 2012. One time he did qualify 15th and manged 3rd (Canada, 2012). The other time he qualified 13th and managed 2nd (Italy, 2012). And both of these were in the beginning of the Pirelli era. And I don't think we have ever seen Hulkenberg go from 5th to 15th due to tyres. You may point me to those races to prove me wrong.

And I'll say it again; My assessment of Hulk - Perez is that both a very good, very close drivers. Their strengths are different, but when push comes to shove, they both tend to occupy the same piece of racetrack at the end of the day. So there comes a point where you compare driver and it becomes fruitless due to drivers being so close and it's a matter of which driver shows up that day. I'd say both deserves to be on the grid next year and there are many drivers that are worse than them.

If Red Bull were to pick any of Hulk/Perez, they would've done a good job regardless. I would give Hulk the slight egde though due to my points above plus there is an element of a question mark in regards to Perez's ability to handle the pressure of being at a top team. He did look flustered in McLaren, however, more mature, more experience might point more towards that he would handle that. Hulkenberg having fought for titles, wins and podiums in his junior career, you would think he would be up for it. But that was some time ago though.

[DChemTech]

Sorry for the confusion, I meant forum-user LHamilton, not the driver. Should have made that more clear

But anyway, I don't think Hulk is a better choice despite "being slower and docile", but because he is just as fast and docile. Yes, Max will beat Perez too, I have little doubt on that. But that's not the point; the point is, who will potentially get least in the way of Max - who has the lowest chance of taking Max out by accident when trying a move, who is most likely to accept team orders when needed. If you want any fighting chance at a (drivers) championship against Mercedes, you are going to need a situation where you can direct every point to your main driver - and that means having a second driver that is willing to yield when needed. That's what I meant when I said they need a Bottas instead of a Rosberg, I didn't mean it in terms of speed, but of attitude.

[Zynerji]

Anyone think RBR could lure Rosberg out of retirement for 1 year?