Red Bull RB16

[Just_a_fan]

The front wing lowest element has been made bigger, and there's a bigger curve where the element meets the 250 section. The mouth of the cape is bigger, no doubt to capture more airflow.

Looks like they're using their "T" wing and rear upper A arm in a clever way with their wastegate pipes.

Engine cover has improved, looks tighter.

Isn't the position of the waste gate pipes more just about freeing the exit for the cooling outlet around the exhaust? By sticking it alongside the crash structure, it's in an area of poor flow anyway so likely has less impact on the cooling package. Also, the race was cold so they probably banked on being able to run a tighter engine cover as cooling would also be less of an issue in the first place.

I'd be interested to hear how you think they might be interacting the waste gate pipes with the t-wing/suspension arm.

I think motorsport Italy analysed this. They said that this whole wastegate upgrade is a bid to improve stability in slow corners/hard breaking. The idea is to improve the flow under the rear wing area to aid both the diffuser and the rear wing. The rear wing because high flow/speed just underneath the rear wing will cause high pressure on the flatter/lower part of the wing and thus increase efficient downforce.
The major goal is to prevent stalling of air in low speeds to aid slow cornering.
Also said the gold paint sort of thing on the exhaust is a heat resistant to aid in all this. Dunno how tho

Interesting idea. I would have thought that the original higher place waste gate pipes would have been better for that approach than placing them lower. Lower pipes might help the diffuser, perhaps, especially if they are also trying to blow the waste gate in braking.

Is this a clever loop hole that they've found, I wonder.

[godlameroso]

To what extent would those wastegate pipes move if the T-wing acts as a counter-lever, similar to how a clutch diaphragm spring lifts a pressure plate?

Perhaps RB feels there's more potential to energize the diffuser counter rotating vortecies than the rear wing directly.

[ryaan2904]

Isn't the position of the waste gate pipes more just about freeing the exit for the cooling outlet around the exhaust? By sticking it alongside the crash structure, it's in an area of poor flow anyway so likely has less impact on the cooling package. Also, the race was cold so they probably banked on being able to run a tighter engine cover as cooling would also be less of an issue in the first place.

I'd be interested to hear how you think they might be interacting the waste gate pipes with the t-wing/suspension arm.

I think motorsport Italy analysed this. They said that this whole wastegate upgrade is a bid to improve stability in slow corners/hard breaking. The idea is to improve the flow under the rear wing area to aid both the diffuser and the rear wing. The rear wing because high flow/speed just underneath the rear wing will cause high pressure on the flatter/lower part of the wing and thus increase efficient downforce.
The major goal is to prevent stalling of air in low speeds to aid slow cornering.
Also said the gold paint sort of thing on the exhaust is a heat resistant to aid in all this. Dunno how tho

Interesting idea. I would have thought that the original higher place waste gate pipes would have been better for that approach than placing them lower. Lower pipes might help the diffuser, perhaps, especially if they are also trying to blow the waste gate in braking.

Is this a clever loop hole that they've found, I wonder.

Exactly. Lower pipes are to help the diffuser especially in slow corners where stalling is the major issue for a high rake car. Also, without those floor bits next year and short diffuser, they desperately need it to improve diffuser performance for next year

[ryaan2904]

Honestly I feel the FIA either didn't think much about with these rule changes or simply ate some nice money from Mercedes. The floor and diffuser changes both dont affect Mercedes all that much.
1. Mercedes low rake philosophy simply needs less air sealing on the sides than RBR's high rake philosophy. Coupled with their slim nose, which accelerates air flow to the underbody, they've got it all set on both slow and high speed corners.
2. For the same reason, Low rake cars can do well with a shorter diffuser. High rake cars need bigger diffusers to accelerate the larger amount of air flowing underneath the car. Both rule changes affect the High rake cars negatively.

Look at the RB's upgrades for example. The whole 'trying to blow the wastegates' or the 'vented cape' thing are more necessity than upgrades. With blown diffuser, you waste MGUH energy to spin the turbo. With the vented cape, you increase the air flowing under the bodywork but you decrease the energy a little of the y-250 vortices

[Just_a_fan]

Honestly I feel the FIA either didn't think much about with these rule changes or simply ate some nice money from Mercedes. The floor and diffuser changes both dont affect Mercedes all that much.
1. Mercedes low rake philosophy simply needs less air sealing on the sides than RBR's high rake philosophy. Coupled with their slim nose, which accelerates air flow to the underbody, they've got it all set on both slow and high speed corners.
2. For the same reason, Low rake cars can do well with a shorter diffuser. High rake cars need bigger diffusers to accelerate the larger amount of air flowing underneath the car. Both rule changes affect the High rake cars negatively.

Look at the RB's upgrades for example. The whole 'trying to blow the wastegates' or the 'vented cape' thing are more necessity than upgrades. With blown diffuser, you waste MGUH energy to spin the turbo. With the vented cape, you increase the air flowing under the bodywork but you decrease the energy a little of the y-250 vortices

RBR's vented cape is likely because they've made the front of the cape more aggressive and thus are alleviating separation caused by that more aggressive design. The cape doesn't make the Y-250 vortex more energetic, it uses the Y-250 to set up other vortices and it also helps to control the direction the Y-250 takes.

Not sure why you think a low rake car needs a smaller diffuser. The rake of the car is makes the whole underside in to a diffuser, the more rake the more of a diffuser the underloor is. Indeed, Red Bull were the first to make the diffuser smaller than the rules allow - look at the diffusers and none of them use the full volume allowed.

RBR have moved towards the Mercedes style slim nose so there's no specific benefit accruing to Mercedes there.

Mercedes are quicker (in normal circumstances) than RBR because they've done a better job, not because the FIA are helping them. The FIA have been changing the rules to try to slow down Mercedes, not help them. But Mercedes are simply just on top of their game in a way that no F1 team has ever been.

[ryaan2904]

Honestly I feel the FIA either didn't think much about with these rule changes or simply ate some nice money from Mercedes. The floor and diffuser changes both dont affect Mercedes all that much.
1. Mercedes low rake philosophy simply needs less air sealing on the sides than RBR's high rake philosophy. Coupled with their slim nose, which accelerates air flow to the underbody, they've got it all set on both slow and high speed corners.
2. For the same reason, Low rake cars can do well with a shorter diffuser. High rake cars need bigger diffusers to accelerate the larger amount of air flowing underneath the car. Both rule changes affect the High rake cars negatively.

Look at the RB's upgrades for example. The whole 'trying to blow the wastegates' or the 'vented cape' thing are more necessity than upgrades. With blown diffuser, you waste MGUH energy to spin the turbo. With the vented cape, you increase the air flowing under the bodywork but you decrease the energy a little of the y-250 vortices

RBR's vented cape is likely because they've made the front of the cape more aggressive and thus are alleviating separation caused by that more aggressive design. The cape doesn't make the Y-250 vortex more energetic, it uses the Y-250 to set up other vortices and it also helps to control the direction the Y-250 takes.

Not sure why you think a low rake car needs a smaller diffuser. The rake of the car is makes the whole underside in to a diffuser, the more rake the more of a diffuser the underloor is. Indeed, Red Bull were the first to make the diffuser smaller than the rules allow - look at the diffusers and none of them use the full volume allowed.

RBR have moved towards the Mercedes style slim nose so there's no specific benefit accruing to Mercedes there.

Mercedes are quicker (in normal circumstances) than RBR because they've done a better job, not because the FIA are helping them. The FIA have been changing the rules to try to slow down Mercedes, not help them. But Mercedes are simply just on top of their game in a way that no F1 team has ever been.

1. Yes exactly, but they are losing energy by directing some air to the underside which could have been energizing the created vortices. I also did mention you lose a little energy, so yes, whether its an advantage or a disadvantage is debatable.

2. High rake increases the distance between the diffuser at the back and the ground. So, especially at low speeds, you have to work to speed up the airflow at the back. But that's still manageable, the major issue is to prevent air entering from the sides into the underbody. High rake cars suffer much more from this than low rake cars. Air entering from the sides will slow the air down and thus reduce diffuser efficiency. Hence floor sealing is even more important for Redbull.
Redbull and Mercedes both work with two very different underbody philosophies. Redbull generates downforce by increasing Mass flow in the underbody. Mercedes generate downforce by squeezing and speeding up already existing air in the underbody.

3. Yeah, Mercedes are on top of their game, which is fine, but the Fia isnt exactly helping here. Only 2 teams actively use the low rake philosophy, out of which one is literally a copied Mercedes. RP literally eats out of Mercedes' palms. By making rule changes which affect not 3 or 4 but 8 teams negatively is quite literally helping Mercedes.
I won't take my accusations back until anyone can actually prove that Mercedes too are being affected as much as the other teams.

[ryaan2904]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/47838557

Whatever I said was quoted from here. Give it a read and then tell me if you think theres something missing. All I see is how the whole grid except Mercedes need to deal with a major issue here.

[Marti_EF3]

[Just_a_fan]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/47838557

Whatever I said was quoted from here. Give it a read and then tell me if you think theres something missing. All I see is how the whole grid except Mercedes need to deal with a major issue here.

I see Red Bull continuing to follow Newey's high rake concept even though the evidence shows that it's the wrong concept. It worked back in the Vettel years because they could blow the diffuser etc. Today? It's the wrong concept. If it was anyone other than Newey they'd have been sacked by now.

Other teams followed Red Bull because, hey, they have Newey. But, you know what? Newey isn't infallible. Indeed, Newey is actually wrong in the current era.

Red Bull could be more successful if they took another route. But Newey. So they won't.

When the evidence continues to show you that your idea is wrong, continuing to follow that idea might be considered to be a sign of madness. To paraphrase a well known idiom.

[Just_a_fan]

3. Yeah, Mercedes are on top of their game, which is fine, but the Fia isnt exactly helping here. Only 2 teams actively use the low rake philosophy, out of which one is literally a copied Mercedes. RP literally eats out of Mercedes' palms. By making rule changes which affect not 3 or 4 but 8 teams negatively is quite literally helping Mercedes.
I won't take my accusations back until anyone can actually prove that Mercedes too are being affected as much as the other teams.

Is the copied Mercedes, with a Mercedes PU second in the WCC? No. So it isn't the concept or the PU that makes the car a winner. The Mercedes is much more than the rake choice. Or the PU.

RedBull are comfortably second in the WCC ahead of last year's Mercedes. Ergo, it's more than just rake concept at play.

[wesley123]

1. Yes exactly, but they are losing energy by directing some air to the underside which could have been energizing the created vortices. I also did mention you lose a little energy, so yes, whether its an advantage or a disadvantage is debatable.

2. High rake increases the distance between the diffuser at the back and the ground. So, especially at low speeds, you have to work to speed up the airflow at the back. But that's still manageable, the major issue is to prevent air entering from the sides into the underbody. High rake cars suffer much more from this than low rake cars. Air entering from the sides will slow the air down and thus reduce diffuser efficiency. Hence floor sealing is even more important for Redbull.
Redbull and Mercedes both work with two very different underbody philosophies. Redbull generates downforce by increasing Mass flow in the underbody. Mercedes generate downforce by squeezing and speeding up already existing air in the underbody.

You're trying to simplify it a bit too much, just like is said in the article you posted after this. Both solutions have their gains and losses, and something as rake isn't the holy grail; there is a whole car to it.

To say that Mercedes would lose less from this is unreasonable, as in the end they converge around similar solutions. Outside of that, there is literally no reason to help Mercedes to begin with. F1 would gain quite a lot in slowing down Mercedes.

The simple fact of the matter is that currently, Mercedes simply is the better team. The FIA isn't helping anyone here.

[godlameroso]

If RBR has rear downforce stability issues, reducing rear downforce via regulation changes may make things worse. I can see why RBR is trying to understand the issue now, for 1 you can't make huge changes so they're essentially stuck with their high rake car. 2 the team has to prepare for 2022 regulation change.

Understanding and mitigating the instability issue as much as possible this season will make the loss of rear downforce less severe and allow them to manage the balance issue quicker. It will also allow them to make more thoughtful changes with the limited tokens they have.

One consequence of the rules may be increased drag from the cars because the teams may have to run more aggressive rear wings to compensate for the balance change from less rear downforce offered by the trimmed floor and reduced aero features.

I can see teams starting 2021 with mid 2019 levels of downforce, and ending the season with 2020 starting downforce levels.

[ryaan2904]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/47838557

Whatever I said was quoted from here. Give it a read and then tell me if you think theres something missing. All I see is how the whole grid except Mercedes need to deal with a major issue here.

I see Red Bull continuing to follow Newey's high rake concept even though the evidence shows that it's the wrong concept. It worked back in the Vettel years because they could blow the diffuser etc. Today? It's the wrong concept. If it was anyone other than Newey they'd have been sacked by now.

Other teams followed Red Bull because, hey, they have Newey. But, you know what? Newey isn't infallible. Indeed, Newey is actually wrong in the current era.

Red Bull could be more successful if they took another route. But Newey. So they won't.

When the evidence continues to show you that your idea is wrong, continuing to follow that idea might be considered to be a sign of madness. To paraphrase a well known idiom.

Yeah. I think following this concept is a little pointless too. Still now theyre trying to revive the blown diffuser concept, with the wastegate upgrades and all. But I can't blame them 100% for this.
I think this is where Mercedes earned its real victory. Remember in 2017/2018, the merc chassis wasnt really infallible and its argueable that Ferrari had them beat. But Ferrari followed the rake design. Everyone except Mercedes used the rake design. So RB kept blaming the merc engine or a lack of their own as the issue why they weren't winning. Again, cant really blame them, Merc has had the best engine on the grid.
Now when teams understand this, its already too late, theres nothing they can do about it. They're stuck, waiting for the rule changes knowing that Merc has 2021 in the bag

[ryaan2904]

3. Yeah, Mercedes are on top of their game, which is fine, but the Fia isnt exactly helping here. Only 2 teams actively use the low rake philosophy, out of which one is literally a copied Mercedes. RP literally eats out of Mercedes' palms. By making rule changes which affect not 3 or 4 but 8 teams negatively is quite literally helping Mercedes.
I won't take my accusations back until anyone can actually prove that Mercedes too are being affected as much as the other teams.

Is the copied Mercedes, with a Mercedes PU second in the WCC? No. So it isn't the concept or the PU that makes the car a winner. The Mercedes is much more than the rake choice. Or the PU.

RedBull are comfortably second in the WCC ahead of last year's Mercedes. Ergo, it's more than just rake concept at play.

I think RP has all the tools to win (except maybe drivers). Its their 1st yr understanding this concept. Also they've been rather unlucky this yr. With Vettel there, they're gonna be there challenging RBR definitely. I think so atleast.

[ryaan2904]

1. Yes exactly, but they are losing energy by directing some air to the underside which could have been energizing the created vortices. I also did mention you lose a little energy, so yes, whether its an advantage or a disadvantage is debatable.

2. High rake increases the distance between the diffuser at the back and the ground. So, especially at low speeds, you have to work to speed up the airflow at the back. But that's still manageable, the major issue is to prevent air entering from the sides into the underbody. High rake cars suffer much more from this than low rake cars. Air entering from the sides will slow the air down and thus reduce diffuser efficiency. Hence floor sealing is even more important for Redbull.
Redbull and Mercedes both work with two very different underbody philosophies. Redbull generates downforce by increasing Mass flow in the underbody. Mercedes generate downforce by squeezing and speeding up already existing air in the underbody.

You're trying to simplify it a bit too much, just like is said in the article you posted after this. Both solutions have their gains and losses, and something as rake isn't the holy grail; there is a whole car to it.

To say that Mercedes would lose less from this is unreasonable, as in the end they converge around similar solutions. Outside of that, there is literally no reason to help Mercedes to begin with. F1 would gain quite a lot in slowing down Mercedes.

The simple fact of the matter is that currently, Mercedes simply is the better team. The FIA isn't helping anyone here.

Yes, I may be missing things here but "Mercedes simply is the better team" doesn't exactly help me see them