Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[lio007]

He's not wrong, Honda started the season not long after having a big breakthrough, they made a conservative improvement from winter testing to the start of the season. Since then, in the background, Honda have made several improvements to their power unit. The same basic architecture is there but just very well developed. The power unit footprint has shrunk, as has the cooling requirements, which means smaller radiators as well. Reliablity and power have both improved over what is on the car now, fuel efficiency has improved, giving more window for ERS recovery.

If the latest spec was shoved in the current car, just the ICE/Turbo combo alone would bring .2 at least. They still have a whole winter to keep developing what they have now, and given recent understandings of power unit behavior, and some corresponding ideas, there's certainly another step possible between now and the start of next season. There's still 5 months of development and Honda has good direction, it's a shame that once again Honda is forced out of F1 right when it's about to have a good weapon for the championship.

The question is if Merc can again make a bigger step with their rumoured new intake-system compared to Honda (...hopefully not).

[godlameroso]

He's not wrong, Honda started the season not long after having a big breakthrough, they made a conservative improvement from winter testing to the start of the season. Since then, in the background, Honda have made several improvements to their power unit. The same basic architecture is there but just very well developed. The power unit footprint has shrunk, as has the cooling requirements, which means smaller radiators as well. Reliablity and power have both improved over what is on the car now, fuel efficiency has improved, giving more window for ERS recovery.

If the latest spec was shoved in the current car, just the ICE/Turbo combo alone would bring .2 at least. They still have a whole winter to keep developing what they have now, and given recent understandings of power unit behavior, and some corresponding ideas, there's certainly another step possible between now and the start of next season. There's still 5 months of development and Honda has good direction, it's a shame that once again Honda is forced out of F1 right when it's about to have a good weapon for the championship.

The question is if Merc can again make a bigger step with their rumoured new intake-system compared to Honda (...hopefully not).

It won't be easy to match them, until now Mercedes has always been at least one step ahead of everyone else. Next year may be no different, even if they make a similar step next year, Honda is confident they can at least close the gap over what it has been this year.

[Wouter]

He's not wrong, Honda started the season not long after having a big breakthrough, they made a conservative improvement from winter testing to the start of the season. Since then, in the background, Honda have made several improvements to their power unit. The same basic architecture is there but just very well developed. The power unit footprint has shrunk, as has the cooling requirements, which means smaller radiators as well. Reliablity and power have both improved over what is on the car now, fuel efficiency has improved, giving more window for ERS recovery.

If the latest spec was shoved in the current car, just the ICE/Turbo combo alone would bring .2 at least.

.
Honda is confident they can at least close the gap over what it has been this year.

How did you get this inside information, from @Wazari?

[mzso]

"It seems Honda has done a good job in bringing updates to the power unit. There is some good stuff in the pipeline, and they're still going to be around next year, giving it all to be successful in the championship."

I know Toto is hiper good in public relationship, but to to me the interesting part is the one in bold.

Why? It's just plain speculation of a competitor. Probably with some agenda, like promoting the PU freeze. (which is unlikely to happen.)

[godlameroso]

He's not wrong, Honda started the season not long after having a big breakthrough, they made a conservative improvement from winter testing to the start of the season. Since then, in the background, Honda have made several improvements to their power unit. The same basic architecture is there but just very well developed. The power unit footprint has shrunk, as has the cooling requirements, which means smaller radiators as well. Reliablity and power have both improved over what is on the car now, fuel efficiency has improved, giving more window for ERS recovery.

If the latest spec was shoved in the current car, just the ICE/Turbo combo alone would bring .2 at least.

.
Honda is confident they can at least close the gap over what it has been this year.

How did you get this inside information, from @Wazari?

No one person specifically, just me doing my own detective work. I could be completely off base.

[godlameroso]

I've been thinking.

Honda's Super GT engine also uses F1 style pre-chamber, the super GT engine is a turbo inline 4, so development on the actual combustion process isn't going to stop from the Honda side even after they leave F1.

The are things that are very different on the F1 side, namely that the engine is a V6, and the MGU-H is also a huge variable. Getting the two electric motors to work with the combustion engine, and developing the electronics to work with the combustion concept is likely the big challenge when it comes to developing these engines. Any power or reliability improvement has to have the electronic integration in mind. Improving turbine efficiency may lead to a net loss if it reduces ERS efficiency, likewise improving engine power, or fuel economy may hurt turbine recovery directly, but allows you to deploy more indirectly leading to a net gain.

For Red Bull to successfully take over the program, it needs a clear development direction, and understanding of how the different parts of the power unit interact. That's of course in addition to a substantial budget.

It could be a trade off, perhaps the RB engine program falls behind the OEMs until they're frozen for 2023, in return the RB gets extra budget(because the engine program isn't limited by the budget cap), and since the engine integration affects chassis performance, in essence RB can advance chassis development for a season before they decide if they want to take on a Renault power unit. By then all 3 OEMs will have a split turbo layout so making the adjustment will be easier.

[saviour stivala]

''For red bull to take over the program - 'Honda engine and its development' ''. why keep dreaming. just forget it.

[Big Tea]

I realise most will be fed up with me saying this all the time, but again, what if they allowed an equivalency?
or example, No MHU-h unit used, slightly more fuel flow allowed. Not something a builder would take off if they had it working, but for a new engine builder it would provide at least some way not to be out of the game.
It could be used within the existing fuel limit, as it has its own weight penalty.

[etusch]

Honda thinks that ice efficiency is important for hybrid cars too so they are developing prechamber for road cars too. I remember that they will start using it about 2025.
Fia are such a idiot group that puts budget limit to cars but not engines and they are lack of engine manufacturer.

[ispano6]

Tanabe has said in an interview that giving it their all to win the remaining 4 races will be crucial to next year's power unit and has a direct impact on the development. The focus is on the current power unit's weaknesses as well as improving it's strengths. The next PU upgrade will exceed those compared to the year over year performance upgrades from previous seasons, with the technology intended for the 2022 PU being brought forth in the 2021 PU with a host of performance upgrades in a number of key areas. AT and RB have told Honda that they should proceed with an increased emphasis on winning races for the remainder of this season and into next season.
https://news.goo.ne.jp/article/dot/spor ... 00005.html

Recalling what Kakuda said during the Honda RA620H:Secret story article, he mentioned that the new material used would bear fruit in the later races of the PU's usage and should be a test to gauge the maximum performance that can be harnessed in races 5-7 of it's designated lifespan. The expectation is that as other manufacturer's engines start to show wear and experience decreased performance, that the Honda PU's reliability will allow them to sustain maximum performance. Honda is keen to see how their reliability holds up and I am thinking they will try things in these last few races that may sacrifice reliability in the name of performance development.

[sn809]

Honda thinks that ice efficiency is important for hybrid cars too so they are developing prechamber for road cars too. I remember that they will start using it about 2025.
Fia are such a idiot group that puts budget limit to cars but not engines and they are lack of engine manufacturer.

Wow, sad to say this but then they are in dreamland. Usually Honda is up there with Tech development but it seems to be missing in action now days.

Most countries would have banned ICE by then. If they need to do something its all electric now.
Hybrid tech at least Plug in might be useful for the next couple of years and that is it, it will be the end of the line.

[GhostF1]

Honda thinks that ice efficiency is important for hybrid cars too so they are developing prechamber for road cars too. I remember that they will start using it about 2025.
Fia are such a idiot group that puts budget limit to cars but not engines and they are lack of engine manufacturer.

Wow, sad to say this but then they are in dreamland. Usually Honda is up there with Tech development but it seems to be missing in action now days.

Most countries would have banned ICE by then. If they need to do something its all electric now.
Hybrid tech at least Plug in might be useful for the next couple of years and that is it, it will be the end of the line.

Most countries will have banned ICE's by 2025!?!?!

Haha I think that's dreamland! The only country I'm aware of with aggressive targets is the UK. Which will ban sales of all new, solely ICE powered cars by 2030. Important to note though, hybrid vehicles which combine electric motor and ICE powertrains will be allowed to continue being sold until around 2040 and that is not a confirmed, locked in deadline either.

So, Honda making sure their ICE's are as efficient as possible is extremely important for at least the next two decades, we can't just abandon R&D in that field. Imagine what would happen to the commercial & industrial sectors that have no solid vehicle replacements on the immediate horizon... If you think ICE/hybrids will be banned globally in 4 years, we are in a lot of trouble!

To be honest, I see a relatively long future for ICE engines as it moves into a newer phase with new technologies applied that vastly improve efficiency, fuelled by synthetic compounds while having a solid hybrid component, we'll see their reputation for being "dirty" fall away (seeing how the F1 engines/manufacturers deal with bio-fuel regs and then the next generation engine and what they can do when pushing the limits is going to be extremely interesting). Fact of the matter is, current battery tech is still too young, it's pretty dirty to manufacture and is finite in its future with the currently required materials not being renewable, so if we ramp up their production to the point required to mobilise all new vehicles, we are no better off and will face similar problems for the future.

And lets not forget there is the Hydrogen solution which has EXTREMELY good promise.

[ryaan2904]

He's not wrong, Honda started the season not long after having a big breakthrough, they made a conservative improvement from winter testing to the start of the season. Since then, in the background, Honda have made several improvements to their power unit. The same basic architecture is there but just very well developed. The power unit footprint has shrunk, as has the cooling requirements, which means smaller radiators as well. Reliablity and power have both improved over what is on the car now, fuel efficiency has improved, giving more window for ERS recovery.

If the latest spec was shoved in the current car, just the ICE/Turbo combo alone would bring .2 at least. They still have a whole winter to keep developing what they have now, and given recent understandings of power unit behavior, and some corresponding ideas, there's certainly another step possible between now and the start of next season. There's still 5 months of development and Honda has good direction, it's a shame that once again Honda is forced out of F1 right when it's about to have a good weapon for the championship.

The question is if Merc can again make a bigger step with their rumoured new intake-system compared to Honda (...hopefully not).

How much can you gain with a new intake anyways? It has to be around 10 bhp. 15 if you are being optimistic. Mercedes have admitted themselves that we have reached a sort of maximum performance level for these v6 turbo hybrid engines.

[etusch]

Honda thinks that ice efficiency is important for hybrid cars too so they are developing prechamber for road cars too. I remember that they will start using it about 2025.
Fia are such a idiot group that puts budget limit to cars but not engines and they are lack of engine manufacturer.

Wow, sad to say this but then they are in dreamland. Usually Honda is up there with Tech development but it seems to be missing in action now days.

Most countries would have banned ICE by then. If they need to do something its all electric now.
Hybrid tech at least Plug in might be useful for the next couple of years and that is it, it will be the end of the line.

Honda's best market is not england or europe. They are selling usa, canada and some eastern countries. I believe that englands 2030 ice ban is just a show unrelated with realities.
In the other hand if it will last short or longer, we are in hybrid era and manufacturers must think about it. They can not jump over it and in the same time they have to save their image in this era too. If someone is bad at hybrid it is hard to convince costumers that they made good electric car. (I think winner of this era is also Toyota as they are already best before) Nobody can stop ice but can reduce investment on it. Mazda chose to invest it. Honda chose to invest it. Mercedes said they stoped developing new ice but then had collaboration to develop it with other brands.
Everyone looks for a better battery but in the same time keeps an eye on the hydrogen instead of battery which is eastern manufacturers already uses. Electric car can be future but ice will not die, never( this is my opinion). But even if it will die it is not now. Now we are in hybrid era and efficient ice's are best for this era.

[godlameroso]

He's not wrong, Honda started the season not long after having a big breakthrough, they made a conservative improvement from winter testing to the start of the season. Since then, in the background, Honda have made several improvements to their power unit. The same basic architecture is there but just very well developed. The power unit footprint has shrunk, as has the cooling requirements, which means smaller radiators as well. Reliablity and power have both improved over what is on the car now, fuel efficiency has improved, giving more window for ERS recovery.

If the latest spec was shoved in the current car, just the ICE/Turbo combo alone would bring .2 at least. They still have a whole winter to keep developing what they have now, and given recent understandings of power unit behavior, and some corresponding ideas, there's certainly another step possible between now and the start of next season. There's still 5 months of development and Honda has good direction, it's a shame that once again Honda is forced out of F1 right when it's about to have a good weapon for the championship.

The question is if Merc can again make a bigger step with their rumoured new intake-system compared to Honda (...hopefully not).

How much can you gain with a new intake anyways? It has to be around 10 bhp. 15 if you are being optimistic. Mercedes have admitted themselves that we have reached a sort of maximum performance level for these v6 turbo hybrid engines.

Mercedes is rumored to be bringing 30hp in their engine which would put them at 1,050hp. According to sources in the paddock they currently have ~1,020hp, Honda and Renault have just over 1,000 and Ferrari is at 970 because Binotto claims they are down 50hp to Mercedes.

Honda is taking a big step next year, but I don't know if it is enough to match Mercedes, with luck they can be within 10hp. Which would be a net gain of 5hp relative to Merc.