Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

[PlatinumZealot]

Let us see if he can crush Lance. That will give some answers on his motivation if not for absolute performance level.

[Jolle]

I don't know if this warrants a thread, but I saw a piece on Sky recently where Martin Brundle said that Lewis has developed this car that has won 6 titles and it's not just Mercedes.

For someone like me, a Vettel fan and someone who's always liked Lewis and even secretly wanted him to win a title in that dominant 2010-2013 phase I can never forget Brundle's words where he said "you're looking at the most important bloke in F1 and he doesn't have blonde hair" clearly making a dig at Vettel and amplifying the much propagated theory that Newey won 4 titles.

I just am now wondering whether Vettel just beat Webber and is a complete luck box and whether Hamilton is this god who god cannot beat?

Vettel was obviously very good in his time, there are no doubts about that. You don't give Hamilton a strong run in 2017 and 2018 without being a strong driver. He also showed well against Kimi in their time together as well. He didn't dominate him the same way as Alonso did, but he dominated still. There is myriad evidence of Sebastian's speed and cunning. He definitely is one of the greats.

Only weakness I would say is that his style of driving is not as flexible as others. In Red Bull in the first half of 2012, he was struggling against Mark until the Coanda exhaut and the tyres were sussed out. Then in 2014 he struggled against Rick because the 2014 Renault engine was a crude in power delivery and the BBW was tricky. Sebastian recovered well in 2015 with a better balanced Ferrari under James Allison and he kept that momentum until a certain clerk showed up. I think by that time Sebastian was already in decline though. Kimi had out-qualified him in 2017 and was close to his pace in 2019. So definitely, Sebastian's edge has gone faster than the typical driver. If he does well at Aston Martin there will still be question if his mojo has really come back.

The seasons you are comparing to Kimi should be 2016 and 2018(2019 Leclerc was already in Ferrari).
The Vettel vs Leclerc is weird to me, because last season started mostly Vettel with Charles showing flashes, by mid season Charles was firmly faster but Seb did have a fight back late in the season and made it competitive again.
And of course 2020 Charles beat him like Max vs Albon, just ugly, Ricciardo circa 2014 was nowhere near that bad despite the end stats.

Is Vettel overly affected by his emotional state/motivation? Because some things just don't compute with him.

I think people underestimate how demanding a F1 car is, especially on knife edge and over a race. If for some reason you miss that last bit of flow, that special feeling that everything connects and you have to do it by force, that is when you get these differences. Some drivers have it a race, some a race or two, three... some a few seasons. Thats when the silly mistakes kick in because it doesn't come natural. Hamilton had that in 2011, Vettel in 2014 and now. Nothing to do with overly or suddenly forgot how to drive. Just lost flow.

[dans79]

Nothing to do with overly or suddenly forgot how to drive. Just lost flow.

I'd add that imo the car has been tailored towards his teammates driving style, and that isn't helping him any.

[Jolle]

Nothing to do with overly or suddenly forgot how to drive. Just lost flow.

I'd add that imo the car has been tailored towards his teammates driving style, and that isn't helping him any.

I don't think it's tailored to his teammate so much, more that Leclerc can handle a less smooth rear end better then Vettel. My guess is, with the K unit "soften" the wrinkles out of the power delivery, when it breaks traction, it suddenly becomes much worse before the system balances the torque again.

Let me explain: The throttle pedal on a F1 car is more a torque pedal. You, via a linear graphic ask how much torque you want. With the help of electronics, the MHU-K and a torque sensor it is very precise. But, if the traction breaks, the torque on the drivetrain suddenly drops and the system would then add more electric power to keep the torque up forcing the car to spin. This would account for he many spins especially Ferrari drivers had in the past hybrid seasons. So long you're within the grip levels, nothing to worry about, but when over it.... whoopsie... Also, you have to be very careful not to make it into a kind of traction control. So the system has to balance to keep the power the same, while the torque on the drivetrain varies a lot and suddenly. This makes the rear extra tricky. My guess is that both Honda and Ferrari don't fully have this under control yet. And that is why drivers who have less with the rear of the car, like Kimi, Albon and Vettel, who turn the car sharp with front and don't want to worry about the rear, fall into trouble. This isn't a setup thing, but a flaw. It looks like the Mercedes has this system better under control (really see a Merc car pointing in the wrong direction and why its so much better in the wet) so, Seb must be better next year.

[Tommy Cookers]

Let me explain: The throttle pedal on a F1 car is more a torque pedal. You, via a linear graphic ask how much torque you want. With the help of electronics, the MHU-K and a torque sensor it is very precise. But, if the traction breaks, the torque on the drivetrain suddenly drops and the system would then add more electric power to keep the torque up forcing the car to spin.
... Also, you have to be very careful not to make it into a kind of traction control. So the system has to balance to keep the power the same, while the torque on the drivetrain varies a lot and suddenly. This makes the rear extra tricky. ...

torque follows demand unless that gives unusual rate of change of voltage (rpm) - ie incipient wheelspin
because there is position/time count, amounting to a synthetic voltage (rpm) loop
so yes it emulates traction control - but doesn't count as traction control as defined by the rules
also it somewhat emulates ABS

this extent of these behaviours is governed by the power of the MGU-K
ie they can be overcome by the driver asking too much
a good reason why electric motoring is limited to 120 kW and 200 Nm (despite the urgings eg of the posters here)

[Jolle]

Let me explain: The throttle pedal on a F1 car is more a torque pedal. You, via a linear graphic ask how much torque you want. With the help of electronics, the MHU-K and a torque sensor it is very precise. But, if the traction breaks, the torque on the drivetrain suddenly drops and the system would then add more electric power to keep the torque up forcing the car to spin.
... Also, you have to be very careful not to make it into a kind of traction control. So the system has to balance to keep the power the same, while the torque on the drivetrain varies a lot and suddenly. This makes the rear extra tricky. ...

torque follows demand unless that gives unusual rate of change of voltage (rpm) - ie wheelspin
so yes it emulates traction control - but doesn't count as traction control as defined by the rules
also it emulated ABS

this extents of this behaviour are proportionate the power of the MGU-K
ie it can be overcome by the driver asking too much
a good reason why electric motoring is limited to 120 kW and 200 Nm (despite the urgings eg of the posters here)

If you ask for 400Nm and because there is a drop because the rear wheels loose traction and the computer “corrects” that with adding “just” 50Nm, you’re going to loose the rear end. With a NA engine you won’t had this problem, because torque is directly linked to RPM and much lower.

[Tommy Cookers]

it will even reduce torque as rpm rises fast
that's what the maps do

[PlatinumZealot]

Vettel is good at throttle application or else he wouldnt have mastered the blown diffuser, so it is some other reason.
Yes he spins a lot these days and spinning is from mis-timed or ill-applied throttle, but i take those as brain farts more than lack of skill.

[aran.vtec]

I don't know if this warrants a thread, but I saw a piece on Sky recently where Martin Brundle said that Lewis has developed this car that has won 6 titles and it's not just Mercedes.

For someone like me, a Vettel fan and someone who's always liked Lewis and even secretly wanted him to win a title in that dominant 2010-2013 phase I can never forget Brundle's words where he said "you're looking at the most important bloke in F1 and he doesn't have blonde hair" clearly making a dig at Vettel and amplifying the much propagated theory that Newey won 4 titles.

I just am now wondering whether Vettel just beat Webber and is a complete luck box and whether Hamilton is this god who god cannot beat?

Why would Lewis get the credit for the Mercedes hybrid era ? very bias from Brundle's side in my opinion

Merc walked into 2014 with total dominance not only with the works team but also was seen how the customers had and advantage

Lewis Joined Merc in 2013 and by that time the 2014 chassis/PU was well into development one should actually argue that if any drivers should get credit its Rosberg and Schumacher being with the team for longer, from 2014 the team kept the edge.

The only credit Lewis i suppose he can get is that hes had the upper hand over his teammates mostly by skill and part luck.

[Just_a_fan]

Lewis Joined Merc in 2013 and by that time the 2014 chassis/PU was well into development one should actually argue that if any drivers should get credit its Rosberg and Schumacher being with the team for longer, from 2014 the team kept the edge.

The only credit Lewis i suppose he can get is that hes had the upper hand over his teammates mostly by skill and part luck.

I think the point is that the 2014 car wasn't running in 2013 and that Lewis, along with Rosberg, were the drivers that developed it. Schumacher was long gone by the time the 2014 car even turned a wheel. The drivers both helped the team to develop the car going on through the successive seasons from 2014 to today. Rosberg having left in 2016, that means that Lewis has been involved in the development for the whole time. He's had the upper hand over his team mates by being quicker over a season.

[Just_a_fan]

Vettel is good at throttle application or else he wouldnt have mastered the blown diffuser, so it is some other reason.
Yes he spins a lot these days and spinning is from mis-timed or ill-applied throttle, but i take those as brain farts more than lack of skill.

As I understand it, Vettel liked to have a stable rear under braking and then turn the car in using a pointy front to get it all rotating and then apply the throttle hard. With the blown diffuser, this was exactly what was required because it added a slab of downforce as the revs increased. Indeed, if the revs flaired because of wheelspin, you actually get more downforce which means the blown diffuser was a crude traction control system. So he'd get great turn in and then as the throttle came in the rear would stabilise again and the traction was excellent. RedBull and Renault really perfected the blown diffuser in a way no other team did. Just like Mercedes with the hybrid PU.

Vettel appears to struggle with a car that isn't stable at the rear under braking, much like Button used to.

[Jolle]

it will even reduce torque as rpm rises fast
that's what the maps do

That’s the difference between a pure NA engine and a turbo smoothen by a E motor. If the ICE is quite peaky and the E motor is fast in applying and taking away torque to balance it out, it will go beyond your capabilities to balance the rear with the throttle when you have a sudden drop in measured torque because of broken traction instead of a gap in engine characteristics.

Lets say, you have a steady foot asking 450NM. The ICE delivers a variety between 430 and 450 in quick successions. The E motor is constantly filling in those gaps with +20 up to -10Nm. This takes a few hundreds of a second. Now the rear breaks traction and the torque on the driveshaft is measured at 380. The CE will give the E motor the command to add 70Nm. Suddenly you have more torque then what you asked for and before you can react with the throttle to ease down on power.

[nzjrs]

So the system has to balance to keep the power the same, while the torque on the drivetrain varies a lot and suddenly.

and

If you ask for 400Nm and because there is a drop because the rear wheels loose traction and the computer “corrects” that with adding “just” 50Nm, you’re going to loose the rear end. With a NA engine you won’t had this problem, because torque is directly linked to RPM and much lower.

What you describe as the current operation I would describe as 'traction control' - more precisely I would define any closing of a feedback loop from pedal-position through drivetrain torque (wheel torque?) as traction control. I don't think you have to feed slip into the loop to make it traction control.

On the other hand, I would not describe a LUT from pedal position to (ICE + MGU-H + MGU-K) per current-RPM as traction control - I would call that an open-loop throttle/ERS map. Even parameterizing that with another dimensions (dThrottle/dt, track_position, etc) would still be open-loop map to me.

But I don't know how it is defined. Does anyone have a link to the actual regulations?

[Tommy Cookers]

it will even reduce torque as rpm rises fast
that's what the maps do

That’s the difference between a pure NA engine and a turbo smoothen by a E motor. If the ICE is quite peaky and the E motor is fast in applying and taking away torque to balance it out, it will go beyond your capabilities to balance the rear with the throttle when you have a sudden drop in measured torque because of broken traction instead of a gap in engine characteristics.
Lets say, you have a steady foot asking 450NM. The ICE delivers a variety between 430 and 450 in quick successions. The E motor is constantly filling in those gaps with +20 up to -10Nm. This takes a few hundreds of a second. Now the rear breaks traction and the torque on the driveshaft is measured at 380. The CE will give the E motor the command to add 70Nm. Suddenly you have more torque then what you asked for and before you can react with the throttle to ease down on power.

the 'turbo-motor' characteristic is smoothed away by the H machine causing boost (ie torque curve) to be ideal at all times

the K machine torque is typically +- 100 Nm crankshaft-referenced (not 10 or 20)

eg tyre grip falls to 380 Nm, the surplus '70Nm' starts to spin the wheels, the CE instantly starts to reduce its demand


btw
the torque of 'the NA engine' is not 'much lower'
crankshaft torque of an 800 hp 18000 rpm NA engine is less than crankshaft torque of 800 hp 10500 rpm current type
but the axle torques are the same

[aran.vtec]

Lewis Joined Merc in 2013 and by that time the 2014 chassis/PU was well into development one should actually argue that if any drivers should get credit its Rosberg and Schumacher being with the team for longer, from 2014 the team kept the edge.

The only credit Lewis i suppose he can get is that hes had the upper hand over his teammates mostly by skill and part luck.

I think the point is that the 2014 car wasn't running in 2013 and that Lewis, along with Rosberg, were the drivers that developed it. Schumacher was long gone by the time the 2014 car even turned a wheel. The drivers both helped the team to develop the car going on through the successive seasons from 2014 to today. Rosberg having left in 2016, that means that Lewis has been involved in the development for the whole time. He's had the upper hand over his team mates by being quicker over a season.

Yes you have a point , But i think the point i am trying to make is that drivers(esp Lewis) are getting to much credit for how a car is performing on track F1 drivers are already considered to be the most elite drivers in the world and they are in f1 for that exact reason bar the latest pay drivers, Merc built a well oiled team that knows how to build a race car as seen how they can wrap up the constructors and drivers with many races to spare.

Vettel joined redbull 2009 and in 2010 they started dominating so we know he has the talent/skill but he couldn't do the same at Ferrari.

about 50% of the grid could of helped develop the 2014 Merc into the exact same position it is in now without Lewis, Drivers show their worth on qualifying and race days eg Lewis this year turkey , Vettel Germany 2018.