Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

[adrianjordan]

I didn't see the exact clip, but my interpretation is that perhaps he meant the way Lewis keeps the designers, engineers, mechanics and everyone else in the team motivated to keep improving and not rest on their laurels.

[ENGINE TUNER]

I don't know if this warrants a thread, but I saw a piece on Sky recently where Martin Brundle said that Lewis has developed this car that has won 6 titles and it's not just Mercedes.

For someone like me, a Vettel fan and someone who's always liked Lewis and even secretly wanted him to win a title in that dominant 2010-2013 phase I can never forget Brundle's words where he said "you're looking at the most important bloke in F1 and he doesn't have blonde hair" clearly making a dig at Vettel and amplifying the much propagated theory that Newey won 4 titles.

I just am now wondering whether Vettel just beat Webber and is a complete luck box and whether Hamilton is this god who god cannot beat?

Vettel was obviously very good in his time, there are no doubts about that. You don't give Hamilton a strong run in 2017 and 2018 without being a strong driver. He also showed well against Kimi in their time together as well. He didn't dominate him the same way as Alonso did, but he dominated still. There is myriad evidence of Sebastian's speed and cunning. He definitely is one of the greats.

Only weakness I would say is that his style of driving is not as flexible as others. In Red Bull in the first half of 2012, he was struggling against Mark until the Coanda exhaut and the tyres were sussed out. Then in 2014 he struggled against Rick because the 2014 Renault engine was a crude in power delivery and the BBW was tricky. Sebastian recovered well in 2015 with a better balanced Ferrari under James Allison and he kept that momentum until a certain clerk showed up. I think by that time Sebastian was already in decline though. Kimi had out-qualified him in 2017 and was close to his pace in 2019. So definitely, Sebastian's edge has gone faster than the typical driver. If he does well at Aston Martin there will still be question if his mojo has really come back.

The Vettel vs Leclerc is weird to me, because last season started mostly Vettel with Charles showing flashes, by mid season Charles was firmly faster but Seb did have a fight back late in the season and made it competitive again.
And of course 2020 Charles beat him like Max vs Albon, just ugly, Ricciardo circa 2014 was nowhere near that bad despite the end stats.

LEC was better in Australia 19, the team held him off Vettel. He was probably better in China, definitely better in Bahrain. LEC DEMOLISHED VET in 19. LEC was way better in Singapore, but the undercut gave Vettel an undeserved win. LEC clearly better in Spa and Monza. LEC better in Russia, but Vettel disobeyed team orders and then parked the car on track to sabotage the team. The few times Vettel was better was Canada where he couldn't keep it on track, and Japan where he jump started and then took the air off LEC'S front wing(not Vettel's fault). Vettel's pants were pulled down and he was spanked in 19, then he crashed into LEC in Brazil. It was not close AT ALL, beginning middle or end.

As a 2nd year driver, it was understandable that he would be behind the veteran driver at tracks he had rarely touched like Canada and Japan. Riccardo also categorically outclassed him in 14, yes mechanical problems blurred the full picture, but it was still a clear drubbing. Why is it so hard for so many to admit that Vettel was just never that good?

[NathanOlder]

Lewis Joined Merc in 2013 and by that time the 2014 chassis/PU was well into development one should actually argue that if any drivers should get credit its Rosberg and Schumacher being with the team for longer, from 2014 the team kept the edge.

The only credit Lewis i suppose he can get is that hes had the upper hand over his teammates mostly by skill and part luck.

I think the point is that the 2014 car wasn't running in 2013 and that Lewis, along with Rosberg, were the drivers that developed it. Schumacher was long gone by the time the 2014 car even turned a wheel. The drivers both helped the team to develop the car going on through the successive seasons from 2014 to today. Rosberg having left in 2016, that means that Lewis has been involved in the development for the whole time. He's had the upper hand over his team mates by being quicker over a season.

Yes you have a point , But i think the point i am trying to make is that drivers(esp Lewis) are getting to much credit for how a car is performing on track F1 drivers are already considered to be the most elite drivers in the world and they are in f1 for that exact reason bar the latest pay drivers, Merc built a well oiled team that knows how to build a race car as seen how they can wrap up the constructors and drivers with many races to spare.

Vettel joined redbull 2009 and in 2010 they started dominating so we know he has the talent/skill but he couldn't do the same at Ferrari.

about 50% of the grid could of helped develop the 2014 Merc into the exact same position it is in now without Lewis, Drivers show their worth on qualifying and race days eg Lewis this year turkey , Vettel Germany 2018.

So Vettel has the talent/skill as he joined RedBull the year before they dominated, but Lewis joins Merced a year before and its..... well done Michael & Nico.

Damn I hope someone like Jean Todt is able to pass on the thanks to Michael for the beast that is the W11.

[Titchener]

Remember Martin Brundle was quite involved in Hamilton’s early years so knew a lot about him. Having watched Vettel throughout his whole career it would appear that when things don’t go his way, he seems to lose performance, this is also mentioned by Mark Webber in his autobiography

[raymondu999]

Vettel is good at throttle application or else he wouldnt have mastered the blown diffuser, so it is some other reason.
Yes he spins a lot these days and spinning is from mis-timed or ill-applied throttle, but i take those as brain farts more than lack of skill.

As I understand it, Vettel liked to have a stable rear under braking and then turn the car in using a pointy front to get it all rotating and then apply the throttle hard. With the blown diffuser, this was exactly what was required because it added a slab of downforce as the revs increased. Indeed, if the revs flaired because of wheelspin, you actually get more downforce which means the blown diffuser was a crude traction control system. So he'd get great turn in and then as the throttle came in the rear would stabilise again and the traction was excellent. RedBull and Renault really perfected the blown diffuser in a way no other team did. Just like Mercedes with the hybrid PU.

Vettel appears to struggle with a car that isn't stable at the rear under braking, much like Button used to.

I think Vettel’s style makes the rear looser. I think hes a hard trail braker. If you watched his laps on hard braking circuits, you can see the nose point so much better in those corners with heavy braking entries.

Case in point:
https://youtu.be/VN76TfXYADI

As an aside - you can also see what Jolle was saying in the T5/6 chicane - before hitting the T5 apex he’s already turning to focus on T6. Also in the tight uphill chicane (is it T8/9?) while he is increasing left lock for the kink in the corner his head is already looking for the right hand apex.

Anyways back to my point. If you see the main issues between Vettel and Leclerc this year for example it’s always been on the entry (more or less) when Vettel has these snaps. I think Lec brakes smoother and less of his corner is trail-transitioning into full corner grip, which keeps the snap locked up.

Vettel’s RB years I think they loosened the rear suspension (softer ARB, etc?) and allowed Vettel’s heavy trail braking to break into an induced roll-oversteer situation, and then when this helped the car change direction better, Vettel slammed the throttle and the added downforce from the blown floor squashed out whatever was left of a slide.

typed this out a while back, thought it would be relevant

[Cold Fussion]

I find the mental gymnastics people go to in order to disparage Vettel's achievements while simultaneously praising Hamilton's to ridiculous. People just need to accept that the car's performance is overwhelming dictated by the car and not the driver. Just 2 weeks ago we saw Russel parachuted into a Mercedes and suddenly the people calling him a bad racer or a bottler turn around praising him as the second coming of christ.

[ENGINE TUNER]

I find the mental gymnastics people go to in order to disparage Vettel's achievements while simultaneously praising Hamilton's to ridiculous. People just need to accept that the car's performance is overwhelming dictated by the car and not the driver. Just 2 weeks ago we saw Russel parachuted into a Mercedes and suddenly the people calling him a bad racer or a bottler turn around praising him as the second coming of christ.

You fail to account for the way LEC has outperformed VET so greatly IN THE SAME CAR. As has RIC.

[aran.vtec]

So Vettel has the talent/skill as he joined RedBull the year before they dominated, but Lewis joins Merced a year before and its..... well done Michael & Nico.

Damn I hope someone like Jean Todt is able to pass on the thanks to Michael for the beast that is the W11.

Selective reading much? could you not see what i said about Vettel is that it has nothing todo with the driver? as he couldn't do with Ferrari as he did with redbull proving that the driver shouldn't be getting credit for cars performance.

if you guys relay believe the driver plays such a big factor in car development then why is Lewis getting credit when other drivers (Michael & Nico) had the same if not more input.

People need to accept the fact that F1 is 90% car 10% driver, if Lewis was in any other team we wouldn't be having this conversation.

No one can take Lewis records away he achieved all of this by making the right move at the right time

[Cold Fussion]

I find the mental gymnastics people go to in order to disparage Vettel's achievements while simultaneously praising Hamilton's to ridiculous. People just need to accept that the car's performance is overwhelming dictated by the car and not the driver. Just 2 weeks ago we saw Russel parachuted into a Mercedes and suddenly the people calling him a bad racer or a bottler turn around praising him as the second coming of christ.

You fail to account for the way LEC has outperformed VET so greatly IN THE SAME CAR. As has RIC.

I've done no such thing. You can't just say that because he has outperformed Vettel in 2020 that he was always better and will always better as some axiom. Form is not some immutable driver concept, it's a pointless exercise to say Leclerc is better than Vettel of seven years ago because he is better than him today.

[Zynerji]

So Vettel has the talent/skill as he joined RedBull the year before they dominated, but Lewis joins Merced a year before and its..... well done Michael & Nico.

Damn I hope someone like Jean Todt is able to pass on the thanks to Michael for the beast that is the W11.

Selective reading much? could you not see what i said about Vettel is that it has nothing todo with the driver? as he couldn't do with Ferrari as he did with redbull proving that the driver shouldn't be getting credit for cars performance.

if you guys relay believe the driver plays such a big factor in car development then why is Lewis getting credit when other drivers (Michael & Nico) had the same if not more input.

People need to accept the fact that F1 is 90% car 10% driver, if Lewis was in any other team we wouldn't be having this conversation.

No one can take Lewis records away he achieved all of this by making the right move at the right time

Ferrari couldn't do it with Alonso, Kimi or Massa either... I have a hard time blaming Sebastian after watching Ferrari grab defeat from the jaws of victory since 2008...

[Phil]

It's always a team effort. Applies as much to Lewis as it does to Seb, including 2017 & 2018.

In the end, they have to be considered as a package.

[toraabe]

So Vettel has the talent/skill as he joined RedBull the year before they dominated, but Lewis joins Merced a year before and its..... well done Michael & Nico.

Damn I hope someone like Jean Todt is able to pass on the thanks to Michael for the beast that is the W11.

Selective reading much? could you not see what i said about Vettel is that it has nothing todo with the driver? as he couldn't do with Ferrari as he did with redbull proving that the driver shouldn't be getting credit for cars performance.

if you guys relay believe the driver plays such a big factor in car development then why is Lewis getting credit when other drivers (Michael & Nico) had the same if not more input.

People need to accept the fact that F1 is 90% car 10% driver, if Lewis was in any other team we wouldn't be having this conversation.

No one can take Lewis records away he achieved all of this by making the right move at the right time

The way vettel was sacked. Why should he drive maximum? Toxic environment....

[Cold Fussion]

The way vettel was sacked. Why should he drive maximum? Toxic environment....

Because he is competitive and was looking for a job. Not say his driving isn't affected by being sacked but I don't see any personal benefit to himself by sandbagging.

[Mclarensenna]

I find the mental gymnastics people go to in order to disparage Vettel's achievements while simultaneously praising Hamilton's to ridiculous. People just need to accept that the car's performance is overwhelming dictated by the car and not the driver. Just 2 weeks ago we saw Russel parachuted into a Mercedes and suddenly the people calling him a bad racer or a bottler turn around praising him as the second coming of christ.

You fail to account for the way LEC has outperformed VET so greatly IN THE SAME CAR. As has RIC.

I've done no such thing. You can't just say that because he has outperformed Vettel in 2020 that he was always better and will always better as some axiom. Form is not some immutable driver concept, it's a pointless exercise to say Leclerc is better than Vettel of seven years ago because he is better than him today.

Sorry i am bit confused by this reply can you please clarify it?
Are you saying that the 2020 Leclerc and 2020 Vettel if both raced in the same 2013 exahust blown diffuser redbull 7 years ago in 2013 Vettel would actually beat Leclerc ?

[Fulcrum]

Hamilton is the most successful driver of all time because he has, on average, sat in the most competitive racing seat over the longest interval of time. And, while doing so, consistently been the more dominant driver within the team.

The Mercedes era has been both the most dominant in the history of the sport post 1980. It has also spanned the longest interval in time and races.

Honda era 1986-1991: 96 races, 59 wins across all teams. 61.46% win percentage.
Renault era 1992-1997: 98 races, 64 wins across all teams. 65.31% win percentage.
Ferrari era 2000-2004: 85 races, 57 wins. 67.06% win percentage.
Renault era 2010-2013: 77 races, 44 wins. 57.14 win percentage.
Mercedes era 2014-2020: 138 races, 102 wins via Mercedes team alone. 73.91% win percentage.

To the victor go the spoils, and rightly so. Hamilton undoubtedly deserves his successes. He is probably the most well-rounded driver, has the best braking technique, and almost certainly has some of the best skills when it comes to close engagement, both with respect to passing and defending. His only weakness, if he has one, is a tendency toward mental fragility when challenged - and this is usually outside the car (i.e. political maneuvering).

When you couple those attributes with an unprecedented level of dominance from the machinery, success is the only likely outcome.

Vettel is a bit of an enigma. Without wanting to denigrate him, he's probably the luckiest multiple World Champion I can think of. He's certainly an excellent driver, but the evidence is beginning to suggest he was in the right place at the right time; for 4 years.