Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

[raymondu999]

Sorry i am bit confused by this reply can you please clarify it?
Are you saying that the 2020 Leclerc and 2020 Vettel if both raced in the same 2013 exahust blown diffuser redbull 7 years ago in 2013 Vettel would actually beat Leclerc ?

He means that if 2020 Vettel and 2020 Leclerc, raced in the 2013 RBR -- Leclerc would probably come out on top.

But he's also saying that if 2013 Vettel and 2020 Leclerc, raced in the 2013 RBR -- Leclerc is not guaranteed to come out on top

[Mclarensenna]

So Vettel has the talent/skill as he joined RedBull the year before they dominated, but Lewis joins Merced a year before and its..... well done Michael & Nico.

Damn I hope someone like Jean Todt is able to pass on the thanks to Michael for the beast that is the W11.

Selective reading much? could you not see what i said about Vettel is that it has nothing todo with the driver? as he couldn't do with Ferrari as he did with redbull proving that the driver shouldn't be getting credit for cars performance.

if you guys relay believe the driver plays such a big factor in car development then why is Lewis getting credit when other drivers (Michael & Nico) had the same if not more input.

People need to accept the fact that F1 is 90% car 10% driver, if Lewis was in any other team we wouldn't be having this conversation.

No one can take Lewis records away he achieved all of this by making the right move at the right time

The way vettel was sacked. Why should he drive maximum? Toxic environment....

F1 drivers are very very competitive and everytime the helmet goes on they are in full focus on the race ahead.
Lets look back in history the last decade or so to confirm this theory if true or not

Alonso left Ferrari still drove to his maximum right to the final race
Alonso left Mclaren still drove to his maximum right to the final race
Ric leaving Renault still drove to his maximum right to the final race
Sainz left Mclaren still drove to his maximum to the final race
Perez sacked by Aston while still under contract yet still drove to his maximum right to the final race
Hulk sacked by Renault still drove to his maximum right to the final race

I can give countless more examples of drivers leaving teams being sacked, fired etc
All would have reason to be annoyed, lost motivation, angry, hurt, depressed, betrayed, toxic environment etc etc

But why cannot find even 1 example of an F1 driver deliberately driving well off "his actual regular pace/performance level" ????
Can somebody give even 1 example or possibly a few from the past decade? As i am stumped.

As we have quite a few f1 fans use the excuse Vettel deliberately drove well below his maximum in 2014 and now 2020? So its the second time this excuse has been used for Vettel.
But I have never seen any evidence of this happening to any f1 driver over the past decade so no idea where this theory/idea even started?

[Mclarensenna]

Sorry i am bit confused by this reply can you please clarify it?
Are you saying that the 2020 Leclerc and 2020 Vettel if both raced in the same 2013 exahust blown diffuser redbull 7 years ago in 2013 Vettel would actually beat Leclerc ?

He means that if 2020 Vettel and 2020 Leclerc, raced in the 2013 RBR -- Leclerc would probably come out on top.

But he's also saying that if 2013 Vettel and 2020 Leclerc, raced in the 2013 RBR -- Leclerc is not guaranteed to come out on top

Ah ok. So he saying the 26 year old Vettel is a much faster/better overall driver than the current 33 year old Vettel?
Look at Hamilton at 35 he has actually improved since 26 and Alonso at 33 was a much improved driver over his 26 year old self as well.
So it is interesting to suggest Vettel dropped off in performance at only 33 when he should be at or near his peak should he not?

[Cold Fussion]

I'm saying that driver skill/form is not immutable. In every sport athletes have in form and off form periods, even in pure skill based esports you have players whose form can vary considerably across a long time span. Yes it is interesting and impressive that Hamilton has managed to stay so consistent since 2012 but you also cannot separate that from the equipment advantage he has enjoyed for the last 6 years, an advantage that few athletes will ever experience.

[Zynerji]

Sorry i am bit confused by this reply can you please clarify it?
Are you saying that the 2020 Leclerc and 2020 Vettel if both raced in the same 2013 exahust blown diffuser redbull 7 years ago in 2013 Vettel would actually beat Leclerc ?

He means that if 2020 Vettel and 2020 Leclerc, raced in the 2013 RBR -- Leclerc would probably come out on top.

But he's also saying that if 2013 Vettel and 2020 Leclerc, raced in the 2013 RBR -- Leclerc is not guaranteed to come out on top

Webber literally referred to Seb as a computer after a q session in that time frame. I dunno if LeClerc is in that kind of zone with a car/team that have no rhythm.

[Mclarensenna]

I'm saying that driver skill/form is not immutable. In every sport athletes have in form and off form periods, even in pure skill based esports you have players whose form can vary considerably across a long time span. Yes it is interesting and impressive that Hamilton has managed to stay so consistent since 2012 but you also cannot separate that from the equipment advantage he has enjoyed for the last 6 years, an advantage that few athletes will ever experience.

Using other sports to suggest form is not immutable is very different to F1. Boxing yes and other similar sports where stamina is so important and being injury free also is.
If you get a champion boxer to never train or hit a boxing bag or even put on a set of gloves, then 1 year later throw him in the ring with 2 days prep he will be completely annihilated and made to look like he never boxed in his life.
But get an F1 driver who been nowhere near any F1 car or any race car for a year and he can jump in and still be very competitive after 2 days.
It is because other sports need a tremendous amount of preperation and training. F1 nowhere near as much so form does not yoyo up and down boxing match to boxing match as opposed to F1 race to F1 race

Try show me in F1 in the past decade such wild variances in form between team mates in same team for a fair comparison? Show even 1 example of 2 team mates having a massive wild swing in performance from year to year?

I have seen 1000s of these examples in boxing and tennis and many other sports over the years.
But not once in F1 when comparing exact same team mates year to year in the exact same cars the past decade.
It seems people see it in other sports and assume it happens in F1 but i am yet to see any recent (past decade) example of it?
Maybe you have some examples so please share to validate your theory?

[carisi2k]

As a Webber fan it is going to hurt me to say this but Seb never lost a championship to a team mate. Yes Seb makes mistakes and Lewis would seem to be better overall then Seb but Lewis has been in a car for 7 years that makes his life extremely easy. For Seb even during his 4 championship years the Red Bull was not always the fastest car out there and even when it was the fastest it was never 1 second clear at almost every race like the Mercedes has been.

[ENGINE TUNER]

Selective reading much? could you not see what i said about Vettel is that it has nothing todo with the driver? as he couldn't do with Ferrari as he did with redbull proving that the driver shouldn't be getting credit for cars performance.

if you guys relay believe the driver plays such a big factor in car development then why is Lewis getting credit when other drivers (Michael & Nico) had the same if not more input.

People need to accept the fact that F1 is 90% car 10% driver, if Lewis was in any other team we wouldn't be having this conversation.

No one can take Lewis records away he achieved all of this by making the right move at the right time

The way vettel was sacked. Why should he drive maximum? Toxic environment....

F1 drivers are very very competitive and everytime the helmet goes on they are in full focus on the race ahead.
Lets look back in history the last decade or so to confirm this theory if true or not

Alonso left Ferrari still drove to his maximum right to the final race
Alonso left Mclaren still drove to his maximum right to the final race
Ric leaving Renault still drove to his maximum right to the final race
Sainz left Mclaren still drove to his maximum to the final race
Perez sacked by Aston while still under contract yet still drove to his maximum right to the final race
Hulk sacked by Renault still drove to his maximum right to the final race

And none of those drivers caused the toxic environment like Vettel has by repeatedly crashing into his teammate and making countless driving mistakes. Also, ignoring team orders in Russia and possibly sabotaging the team by parking the car in a way that would most certainly bring out a vsc or sc. Vettel was clearly the cause of the toxic environment, not Ferrari. The even cheated to help him win a championship, he let them down, and if he has purposefully driven poorly this year to spite them then he is only letting himself down.

[ENGINE TUNER]

I'm saying that driver skill/form is not immutable. In every sport athletes have in form and off form periods, even in pure skill based esports you have players whose form can vary considerably across a long time span. Yes it is interesting and impressive that Hamilton has managed to stay so consistent since 2012 but you also cannot separate that from the equipment advantage he has enjoyed for the last 6 years, an advantage that few athletes will ever experience.

Name another multi wdc driver that has made half the errors that VET has in the 4 seasons since the beginning of 2017? Before that Vettel threw away any chance of winning the 09 wdc and tried his best to throw it away in 10 and 12.

There was no bang to the head like for Massa, no debilitating crash like for Kubica, Vettel has merely been straight trash now because he was always a mistake and crash prone driver since day 1. Not having to race other cars took away the spotlight from his greatest weakness.

[PlatinumZealot]

I find the mental gymnastics people go to in order to disparage Vettel's achievements while simultaneously praising Hamilton's to ridiculous. People just need to accept that the car's performance is overwhelming dictated by the car and not the driver. Just 2 weeks ago we saw Russel parachuted into a Mercedes and suddenly the people calling him a bad racer or a bottler turn around praising him as the second coming of christ.

You fail to account for the way LEC has outperformed VET so greatly IN THE SAME CAR. As has RIC.

I've done no such thing. You can't just say that because he has outperformed Vettel in 2020 that he was always better and will always better as some axiom. Form is not some immutable driver concept, it's a pointless exercise to say Leclerc is better than Vettel of seven years ago because he is better than him today.

Your name is a good fit for you cold fusion. Just as cold fusion is unattainable, it is a pipe dream to think that Vettel is still on the same level after Leclerc smashed him like a womp rat for two years straight. I have already come to terms that Vettel has been declingining since 2017 Malaysia. I can only hope he keeps Lance behind next year.

[PlatinumZealot]

This model rates Vettel quite highly. At least up to 2018.

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/

[Just_a_fan]

This model rates Vettel quite highly. At least up to 2018.

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/

Hmm, a "pick years to give required result" model.

[Kingshark]

Vettel was basically the lord and saviour around these forums back in 2013. He couldn’t do anything wrong. He was the fastest, the most consistent, the most complete, the best at everything apparently. Only after his limitations were exposed in the hybrid era did people finally look at his accomplishments with a more objective outlook.

Right now Hamilton has god status among F1 fans. He is the fastest, most consistent, the best at everything, you name it. Although that illusion took a hit in Sakhir when Russell did basically the same thing Hamilton does every weekend with zero practice in the Merc.

The ability of drivers who drive the best cars have always been overrated for as long as I can remember.

Alonso was always better than Vettel, even when Vettel was at his most dominant. Likewise, in 2020 Verstappen is the best driver on the grid.

[Just_a_fan]

Vettel was basically the lord and saviour around these forums back in 2013. He couldn’t do anything wrong. He was the fastest, the most consistent, the most complete, the best at everything apparently. Only after his limitations were exposed in the hybrid era did people finally look at his accomplishments with a more objective outlook.

Right now Hamilton has god status among F1 fans. He is the fastest, most consistent, the best at everything, you name it. Although that illusion took a hit in Sakhir when Russell did basically the same thing Hamilton does every weekend with zero practice in the Merc.

The ability of drivers who drive the best cars have always been overrated for as long as I can remember.

Alonso was always better than Vettel, even when Vettel was at his most dominant. Likewise, in 2020 Verstappen is the best driver on the grid.

Nicely forgetting that Hamilton was successful well before the hybrid era. And beat Alonso in the same car in his rookie year.

Verstappen has so far done nothing that others haven't also done before.

Other than that, spot on.

[Jolle]

Selective reading much? could you not see what i said about Vettel is that it has nothing todo with the driver? as he couldn't do with Ferrari as he did with redbull proving that the driver shouldn't be getting credit for cars performance.

if you guys relay believe the driver plays such a big factor in car development then why is Lewis getting credit when other drivers (Michael & Nico) had the same if not more input.

People need to accept the fact that F1 is 90% car 10% driver, if Lewis was in any other team we wouldn't be having this conversation.

No one can take Lewis records away he achieved all of this by making the right move at the right time

The way vettel was sacked. Why should he drive maximum? Toxic environment....

F1 drivers are very very competitive and everytime the helmet goes on they are in full focus on the race ahead.
Lets look back in history the last decade or so to confirm this theory if true or not

Alonso left Ferrari still drove to his maximum right to the final race
Alonso left Mclaren still drove to his maximum right to the final race
Ric leaving Renault still drove to his maximum right to the final race
Sainz left Mclaren still drove to his maximum to the final race
Perez sacked by Aston while still under contract yet still drove to his maximum right to the final race
Hulk sacked by Renault still drove to his maximum right to the final race

I can give countless more examples of drivers leaving teams being sacked, fired etc
All would have reason to be annoyed, lost motivation, angry, hurt, depressed, betrayed, toxic environment etc etc

But why cannot find even 1 example of an F1 driver deliberately driving well off "his actual regular pace/performance level" ????
Can somebody give even 1 example or possibly a few from the past decade? As i am stumped.

As we have quite a few f1 fans use the excuse Vettel deliberately drove well below his maximum in 2014 and now 2020? So its the second time this excuse has been used for Vettel.
But I have never seen any evidence of this happening to any f1 driver over the past decade so no idea where this theory/idea even started?

Didn’t Alonso “forget” the chicane in his last GP for McLaren during the last few laps?

Most of these drives left their teams on their own terms. A driver who isn’t comfortable where he is, doesn’t have that last few tenths. Damon Hill is maybe the best example of someone that didn’t want to race but Jordan made him. He parked a perfect healthy car in his last GP.