Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

[Kingshark]

Hamilton fans dont diminish Schumachers records. Most if not all respect Schumachers records.

Depends on where you go. On Reddit, there is a legion of Hamilton fans who have made it their personal quest to diminish Schumacher and acclaim Hamilton as the GOAT. This forum is obviously more mature.

I do believe that Hamilton’s legacy will suffer because of Mercedes dominance. It will be the primary stick used to beat him with by younger fans in the future, like how lapdog teammates are for Schumacher.

Were not on reddit though, so don't put fans here in with people from other sites.

I think the only reason we hear about lapdogs for Michael is because at the moment Ham and MSC are almost completely equal in stats so its being used to separate the 2. For me the difference between the 2 is the drastic measures Michael went to to win. 94, 97 and 06. We've never seen Lewis do anything like that, so thats what places Lewis higher in my opinion.

You named Jerez 97 as a reason why you rate Lewis above Michael. Ironically, that year the reason why I rate Michael above Lewis. Michael nearly won the WDC against a vastly superior cars in 97 and 98. Lewis had opportunities to do the same from 09-13 but he never quite put together a season as great as Michael did in 97.

[NathanOlder]

Depends on where you go. On Reddit, there is a legion of Hamilton fans who have made it their personal quest to diminish Schumacher and acclaim Hamilton as the GOAT. This forum is obviously more mature.

I do believe that Hamilton’s legacy will suffer because of Mercedes dominance. It will be the primary stick used to beat him with by younger fans in the future, like how lapdog teammates are for Schumacher.

Were not on reddit though, so don't put fans here in with people from other sites.

I think the only reason we hear about lapdogs for Michael is because at the moment Ham and MSC are almost completely equal in stats so its being used to separate the 2. For me the difference between the 2 is the drastic measures Michael went to to win. 94, 97 and 06. We've never seen Lewis do anything like that, so thats what places Lewis higher in my opinion.

You named Jerez 97 as a reason why you rate Lewis above Michael. Ironically, that year the reason why I rate Michael above Lewis. Michael nearly won the WDC against a vastly superior cars in 97 and 98. Lewis had opportunities to do the same from 09-13 but he never quite put together a season as great as Michael did in 97.

Interesting, but I wouldn't say the cars Michael has in those years were vastly inferior! 97 more than 98, but he was up against Villeneuve, who wasn't exactly a top driver. You don't win 11 races across 2 season in a car that far off the pace. Unless it rains all year. 96 was vastly inferior, but not 97 and 98.

As for 97, Schumacher finsihed lower than Tarso Marquez while in a Ferrari, dont see Lewis making those errors

[Just_a_fan]

Depends on where you go. On Reddit, there is a legion of Hamilton fans who have made it their personal quest to diminish Schumacher and acclaim Hamilton as the GOAT. This forum is obviously more mature.

I do believe that Hamilton’s legacy will suffer because of Mercedes dominance. It will be the primary stick used to beat him with by younger fans in the future, like how lapdog teammates are for Schumacher.

Were not on reddit though, so don't put fans here in with people from other sites.

I think the only reason we hear about lapdogs for Michael is because at the moment Ham and MSC are almost completely equal in stats so its being used to separate the 2. For me the difference between the 2 is the drastic measures Michael went to to win. 94, 97 and 06. We've never seen Lewis do anything like that, so thats what places Lewis higher in my opinion.

You named Jerez 97 as a reason why you rate Lewis above Michael. Ironically, that year the reason why I rate Michael above Lewis. Michael nearly won the WDC against a vastly superior cars in 97 and 98. Lewis had opportunities to do the same from 09-13 but he never quite put together a season as great as Michael did in 97.

It's not his skill of doing so well over the year that he objects to, it's the attempt to crash in to Villeneuve and take them both out and thus win the title. Or the parking of the car in Monaco to prevent Alonso doing his lap for pole. (Massa confirmed that Schumacher told him it was deliberate so there is no argument there).

Of course Hamilton, like Schumacher, has benefitted from superior cars in setting his records. That's how it goes in F1. No one sets win, pole and title records in bad cars.

[Kingshark]

Were not on reddit though, so don't put fans here in with people from other sites.

I think the only reason we hear about lapdogs for Michael is because at the moment Ham and MSC are almost completely equal in stats so its being used to separate the 2. For me the difference between the 2 is the drastic measures Michael went to to win. 94, 97 and 06. We've never seen Lewis do anything like that, so thats what places Lewis higher in my opinion.

You named Jerez 97 as a reason why you rate Lewis above Michael. Ironically, that year the reason why I rate Michael above Lewis. Michael nearly won the WDC against a vastly superior cars in 97 and 98. Lewis had opportunities to do the same from 09-13 but he never quite put together a season as great as Michael did in 97.

It's not his skill of doing so well over the year that he objects to, it's the attempt to crash in to Villeneuve and take them both out and thus win the title. Or the parking of the car in Monaco to prevent Alonso doing his lap for pole. (Massa confirmed that Schumacher told him it was deliberate so there is no argument there).

Of course Hamilton, like Schumacher, has benefitted from superior cars in setting his records. That's how it goes in F1. No one sets win, pole and title records in bad cars.

In my opinion, Hamilton has benefited significantly more than Schumacher from superior cars. Mercedes from 2014-2021 have dominated the sport in a way Ferrari never did, but that is another debate.

What makes the hybrid era especially rubbish is that numerous superbly talented drivers like Alonso, Verstappen, and Ricciardo have wasted 7-8 years of their prime years fighting for nothing but fringe points, podiums and rare victories. What a colossal waste of talent. Shame.

As much as I like Verstappen, I don’t ever want to watch him in a team as dominant as Mercedes 2014-2021 with someone like Bottas as his teammate. That would be a huge waste of talent. I’d much rather see him win 4-5 hard fought titles than have him gifted 7-8 world titles because his car was so much better than everyone else. Winning means more if you have actual competition.

[Just_a_fan]

As much as I like Verstappen, I don’t ever want to watch him in a team as dominant as Mercedes 2014-2021 with someone like Bottas as his teammate. That would be a huge waste of talent. I’d much rather see him win 4-5 hard fought titles than have him gifted 7-8 world titles because his car was so much better than everyone else. Winning means more if you have actual competition.

Well, yes, I can see your point. Of course Bottas wasn't the only driver at Mercedes's other than Hamilton. Rosberg made a fight of it. Indeed, it could be argued that losing to Rosberg in 2016 kicked Hamilton up the arse and in to another gear.

[PlatinumZealot]

Hamilton won 1 title in 7 years in the V8 era. Successful? Sure, but not dominant. Mercedes dominance in the hybrid era has given Hamilton an aura of invincibility that is mostly unwarranted.

As for Verstappen, we will have to wait and see on that one. He is still only 23 years old and has an entire career ahead of him. In my view he is a bigger talent Hamilton. Will that translate into incredible success? Depends if he is lucky enough to end up in the best cars.

Remember....
Max was pretty close to Sainz in his first year.
Max got beaten by Daniel two years in a row.

How do you compare that to Lewis in his first years? No comparison basically. One can argue that Max is less talented and more a manufactured soldier. Raised from birth by a F1 driver father to serve one purpose only. To dominate when he gets to F1.

Did you watch the Max Verstappen documentary? It is in Dutch though... But.. Watch it!

Hamilton was 22 and joined Formula 1 after 5 years in cars, thousands of miles of testing.
Verstappen was 17 and joined Formula 1 after one year in cars, almost zero testing.

Not even remotely comparable.

Verstappen was 19 years old when he lost to prime Ricciardo in the same car. At that age, Hamilton finished 5th in Formula 3 Euroseries. That gives you some context.

In my view biological age is just a number. When you are ready you are ready. Pele won the world cup at seventeen. Ronaldo (phenomeno) was in the world cup at 16. Mike Tyson was champion at 19. Usain Bolt made it to the olympic podium at 17.
IMO Max was no less ready than Lewis was for F1. He was ready... And Marko Agrees.
Even if his first year is ignored and the second and third years counted... Very impressive but nothing phenomenal if we look at evidence available to us.

[Kingshark]

Remember....
Max was pretty close to Sainz in his first year.
Max got beaten by Daniel two years in a row.

How do you compare that to Lewis in his first years? No comparison basically. One can argue that Max is less talented and more a manufactured soldier. Raised from birth by a F1 driver father to serve one purpose only. To dominate when he gets to F1.

Did you watch the Max Verstappen documentary? It is in Dutch though... But.. Watch it!

Hamilton was 22 and joined Formula 1 after 5 years in cars, thousands of miles of testing.
Verstappen was 17 and joined Formula 1 after one year in cars, almost zero testing.

Not even remotely comparable.

Verstappen was 19 years old when he lost to prime Ricciardo in the same car. At that age, Hamilton finished 5th in Formula 3 Euroseries. That gives you some context.

In my view biological age is just a number. When you are ready you are ready. Pele won the world cup at seventeen. Ronaldo (phenomeno) was in the world cup at 16. Mike Tyson was champion at 19. Usain Bolt made it to the olympic podium at 17.
IMO Max was no less ready than Lewis was for F1. He was ready... And Marko Agrees.
Even if his first year is ignored and the second and third years counted... Very impressive but nothing phenomenal if we look at evidence available to us.

Marko speaks many things, some irrational, and this is definitely one of them.

I have enough common sense to realize that there is absolute no way in hell that a 17 year old Verstappen, with one year in lower categories and almost no testing, was as prepared as a 22 year old Hamilton with 5 years in lower categories and unlimited testing. Logic dictates that this simply cannot be true. The only way this could be true is if Verstappen is a far bigger talent than Hamilton, do you think that’s the case?

I also find it ironic that you bring up football. Anyone who knows anything about football knows that there’s a huge difference between a player who is 17 and one that’s 22. At 17 Messi was playing for Barcelona’s youth team. At 22 he was the best player in the world. A huge amount of psychological and physical development takes place between the ages of 17 and 22.

To compare Hamilton and Verstappen by their first few seasons is ignorant at best and completely dishonest at worst.

[lh13]

Oh now this thread is about Hamilton v Shcumacher

Schumacher will always be the GOAT, Hamilton can take the comfortable second. Hamilton was gifted with Mercedes dominance, while having absolutely not contribution to it, while Schumacher had to work hard for the dominance Ferrari achieved, 4 years after his arrival at Ferrari.

[NathanOlder]

Ferrari were good enough for a title after 1 year though. You dont go to the final race of the year leading the championship in a bad car.

[Phil]

Sergio Perez is easily as good as Valtteri Bottas, so next season will give us a pretty good indication of how good Verstappen is relative to Hamilton. If he outperforms Perez by a large margin, larger than Hamilton-Bottas, then it pretty much confirms to me that Verstappen is more talented than Hamilton, because I rate Perez higher than Bottas.

Unfortunately, there is nothing to support your thesis that Perez is as good as Bottas. They've never competed in the same cars. They could be, they may not be. No way to know.

One thing I would say though, is that an easier car always narrows the gap between drivers, regardless if the driver is of amazing talent or simply average. However, put them into a car that is difficult, unpredictable to drive and the difference in lap time greatly extends. Rain and wet weather events also make the cars more unpredictable and difficult too, which is why they often bring out the best of the best.

Verstappen has been driving against team-mates who quite evidently have been inadequate in driving what is probably a more difficult car to drive - thus the difference in lap times is usually quite high. The Mercedes on the other hand, is probably one of the easiest. Even Russel said as much when stepping from the Williams - a car he describes as rather difficult - into the W11. From this, we can assume that even an average driver could get rather "close" to Hamilton in sheer 1-lap pace.

In other words, Perez might be way off the pace of Verstappen too. It depends on how next years RedBull will be to drive. Regardless of what the difference is between the two of them, I'd be careful drawing any conclusions from it, especially against Bottas who is driving a very different car.

While I also rate Perez, I wouldn't exactly call him amazing. He's been good in races and tire management, but that's about it really (IMO). The fact that Stroll seems to have the edge on him in wet weather makes me think that Perez is not that good. For sure though, he will be a benefit to RedBull - his only real goal is to be closer than Albon and Gasly have been, which should make the team overall more competitive in races. It's about being close enough, to be able to put Mercedes under pressure tactically. However, judging his "raw talent" in driving difficult cars to drive... there are various drivers I rate much higher than Perez. In fact, now that I think of it; Perez hasn't ever done anything amazing in such conditions or in a difficult car to drive that comes to my mind at least. Why should it be different against Verstappen if the car remains a beast to drive?

[Moore77]

Hamilton fans dont diminish Schumachers records. Most if not all respect Schumachers records.

Depends on where you go. On Reddit, there is a legion of Hamilton fans who have made it their personal quest to diminish Schumacher and acclaim Hamilton as the GOAT. This forum is obviously more mature.

I do believe that Hamilton’s legacy will suffer because of Mercedes dominance. It will be the primary stick used to beat him with by younger fans in the future, like how lapdog teammates are for Schumacher.

Were not on reddit though, so don't put fans here in with people from other sites.

I think the only reason we hear about lapdogs for Michael is because at the moment Ham and MSC are almost completely equal in stats so its being used to separate the 2. For me the difference between the 2 is the drastic measures Michael went to to win. 94, 97 and 06. We've never seen Lewis do anything like that, so thats what places Lewis higher in my opinion.

Some have definitely made it no different than Reddit.

If Michael would have got such dominant cars like Hamilton had these past 7 years, he wouldn't have had to try extra hard to win. Hamilton is only enjoying cars built by a strong team, for which Michael laid platform. It takes a lot to go to a struggling marquee to bring glory. Not like Hamilton getting frustrated of not winning at McLaren, jumping ship and luckiing into great cars.

[NathanOlder]

Depends on where you go. On Reddit, there is a legion of Hamilton fans who have made it their personal quest to diminish Schumacher and acclaim Hamilton as the GOAT. This forum is obviously more mature.

I do believe that Hamilton’s legacy will suffer because of Mercedes dominance. It will be the primary stick used to beat him with by younger fans in the future, like how lapdog teammates are for Schumacher.

Were not on reddit though, so don't put fans here in with people from other sites.

I think the only reason we hear about lapdogs for Michael is because at the moment Ham and MSC are almost completely equal in stats so its being used to separate the 2. For me the difference between the 2 is the drastic measures Michael went to to win. 94, 97 and 06. We've never seen Lewis do anything like that, so thats what places Lewis higher in my opinion.

Some have definitely made it no different than Reddit.

If Michael would have got such dominant cars like Hamilton had these past 7 years, he wouldn't have had to try extra hard to win. Hamilton is only enjoying cars built by a strong team, for which Michael laid platform. It takes a lot to go to a struggling marquee to bring glory. Not like Hamilton getting frustrated of not winning at McLaren, jumping ship and luckiing into great cars.

I get what you're saying, but don't forget, Lewis joined a struggling marquee at the end of 2012

Yes Mercedes have been stronger than Ferrari were, but Schumacher fought for titles from year 2 and continued to do so for the following 8 or 9 years. So it is a very similar story, just Lewis has enjoyed a better spell of dominance.

[PlatinumZealot]

Marko speaks many things, some irrational, and this is definitely one of them.

I have enough common sense to realize that there is absolute no way in hell that a 17 year old Verstappen, with one year in lower categories and almost no testing, was as prepared as a 22 year old Hamilton with 5 years in lower categories and unlimited testing. Logic dictates that this simply cannot be true. The only way this could be true is if Verstappen is a far bigger talent than Hamilton, do you think that’s the case?

I also find it ironic that you bring up football. Anyone who knows anything about football knows that there’s a huge difference between a player who is 17 and one that’s 22. At 17 Messi was playing for Barcelona’s youth team. At 22 he was the best player in the world. A huge amount of psychological and physical development takes place between the ages of 17 and 22.

To compare Hamilton and Verstappen by their first few seasons is ignorant at best and completely dishonest at worst.

So do you beleive is an F1 driver debuts at age 28 he will be any better than at 18 or 17?

History has shown this does not hold true.

When the driver is ready for F1, he is ready. Doesn't matter the age, we can compare the rookies just the same.

I would even argue that the younger rookies have proven to be better than the older rookies.

[Moore77]

Were not on reddit though, so don't put fans here in with people from other sites.

I think the only reason we hear about lapdogs for Michael is because at the moment Ham and MSC are almost completely equal in stats so its being used to separate the 2. For me the difference between the 2 is the drastic measures Michael went to to win. 94, 97 and 06. We've never seen Lewis do anything like that, so thats what places Lewis higher in my opinion.

Some have definitely made it no different than Reddit.

If Michael would have got such dominant cars like Hamilton had these past 7 years, he wouldn't have had to try extra hard to win. Hamilton is only enjoying cars built by a strong team, for which Michael laid platform. It takes a lot to go to a struggling marquee to bring glory. Not like Hamilton getting frustrated of not winning at McLaren, jumping ship and luckiing into great cars.

I get what you're saying, but don't forget, Lewis joined a struggling marquee at the end of 2012

Yes Mercedes have been stronger than Ferrari were, but Schumacher fought for titles from year 2 and continued to do so for the following 8 or 9 years. So it is a very similar story, just Lewis has enjoyed a better spell of dominance.

Hamilton has enjoyed far superior machinery that he didn't have any role building foundation of it. Hamilton walked into a setup which already had all the required ingredients for success. He simply had to drive the cars that were built by the team. Michael built team around him and involved in all aspects of building the machinery that he drove. If you want, i can repost all those articles that we already went through in the other thread related to Hamilton equalling Michael's records.

Hamilton is just a successful driver, whereas Michael's genius was beyond just the race track. He was the pioneer of physical fitness, team building/bonding and of course an unbelievably quick race driver, probably the quickest that has been.

[dans79]

Michael's genius was beyond just the race track. He was the pioneer of physical fitness

I think you will find a lot of people disagree with this statement! I would personally say senna was an innovator in this area well before Michael!