2021 Mclaren F1 Team

[JordanMugen]

As for 2009 - Mclaren simply wasn't nowhere near either BrawnGP's level or RedBull's level.

That's true, McLaren's 2009 car was a brick on wheels! (Seen below in 2015 show car duties.) How they managed to build such an unrefined car defied belief. But it, obviously, was remedied in 2010 through 2012, before an erroneous change of concept in 2013.

[Herr_Koos]

As for 2009 - Mclaren simply wasn't nowhere near either BrawnGP's level or RedBull's level.

That's true, McLaren's 2009 car was a brick on wheels! (Seen below in 2015 show car duties.) How they managed to build such an unrefined car defied belief. But it, obviously, was remedied in 2010 through 2012, before an erroneous change of concept in 2013.

https://rmsothebys-cache.azureedge.net/ ... 499a3d.jpg

Visually, the 2009 cars all looked extremely simplistic. The new rules eliminated most of the incredibly complex aero that had been developed up to 2008. Even the title winning Brawn looks like a toy next to the 2008 cars. The MP4-24 was poor due to major aero issues; it simply didn't generate enough downforce. McLaren were fighting Ferrari for the 2008 title down to the last corner of the last race in 2008, and thus they simply didn't switch to the 2009 car early enough. This is borne out by the fact that Ferrari's 2009 car was equally bad, if not worse. The revised version that won races later in the season barely looked any different.

[mwillems]

i just did, literally, in the second sentance

Mercedes engine does not mean automatic challenge of Red Bull. No one is saying that.

But if McLaren was able to be 4th fastest car last year, with an engine that is slower (let's speculate 0.2s per lap), it is not crazy to think that they will improve compared to Aston Martin and Red Bull. If all things are the same. Obviously due to some regulation changes and unknowns it is hard to tell, but McLaren had an engine upgrade, it should bring them forward.

A engine upgrade for a chassis not build for it, so overall where you get some you loose some ...

On the other hand, we have the opportunity for more changes to our car to benefit performance than other teams, so I can see where they are coming from. I also understand why some thing RB is a bridge too far.

Both are possible, particularly if RB haven't adapted to the new floor rules well and we have. There is margin to swing considerably in both time gained and lost for Mclaren, relative to others.

Although, it seems we are arguing more because there is not much else to do and we don't have patience to wait for testing

[JordanMugen]

Visually, the 2009 cars all looked extremely simplistic. The new rules eliminated most of the incredibly complex aero that had been developed up to 2008. Even the title winning Brawn looks like a toy next to the 2008 cars.

Good point. I am not 100% convinced. The bulk of the KERS system seemed to serve McLaren poorly, the Brawn seems far more tightly packaged. But even beyond that, details like the bargeboards, rear wing end plates, and out wash front wing end plates, are lacking on the McLaren compared to the Brawn.

Nothing in the 2009 rules package told McLaren or BMW Sauber to abandon their 2008 sidepods, and adopt such square sidepods with no undercut... Unless they simply couldn't fit the KERS battery any other way.

[Herr_Koos]

Visually, the 2009 cars all looked extremely simplistic. The new rules eliminated most of the incredibly complex aero that had been developed up to 2008. Even the title winning Brawn looks like a toy next to the 2008 cars.

Good point. I am not 100% convinced. The bulk of the KERS system seemed to serve McLaren poorly, the Brawn seems far more tightly packaged. But even beyond that, details like the bargeboards, rear wing end plates, and out wash front wing end plates, are lacking on the McLaren compared to the Brawn.

Nothing in the 2009 rules package told McLaren or BMW Sauber to abandon their 2008 sidepods, and adopt such square sidepods with no undercut... Unless they simply couldn't fit the KERS battery any other way.

https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... 2148-1.jpg

No, you're correct; by 2009 standards the McLaren was clearly undercooked. Not to mention the fact that they missed the double diffuser loophole. Again, they simply didn't spend enough time looking for optimal solutions to the 2009 rules. Honda spent all of the previous year developing what eventually became the Brawn, and on the Red Bull side, Newey dealt better with the new regs than most, as he tends to do.
Either way, these are probably some of the ugliest cars ever raced. The 90's cars were simple but beautiful; these just looked lop-sided.

[SmallSoldier]

With most cars launched by now, it seems that we are in for a very intense season!

We will have a better idea after testing, but the Aston Martin, Alpine and AT look like very mature race cars and with very different concepts... Just when I thought 2021 would be little bit of a throwaway season, it is shaping up to be very interesting.

Not long until we can watch the cars on track, but I’m nervous about this season.


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[CjC]

With most cars launched by now, it seems that we are in for a very intense season!

We will have a better idea after testing, but the Aston Martin, Alpine and AT look like very mature race cars and with very different concepts... Just when I thought 2021 would be little bit of a throwaway season, it is shaping up to be very interesting.

Not long until we can watch the cars on track, but I’m nervous about this season.


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Yea, depending on what Ferrari turn up with it’s a race for P4.
For me looking at the cars running a Merc PU we are third on that list.

[mwillems]

Aside from the top 2, anything could happen. providing luck doesn't favour any particular teams like last season, it's another rollercoaster in the making on face value , even more so in a way due to the addition of Ferrari back into the top 3 mix (Most likely), so perhaps even hairier than last year.

I'd like to think we are closer to the top 2, but I do think that so will be some of the midfield.

I see that HAAS have entirely dropped their development for 2021 now and are looking exclusively at 2022. I wonder if we have now done that too, and if that is another reason why Mclaren wanted the early testing days, to see what else needed to be done prior to the seasons start so they can switch focus as early as possible.

[FittingMechanics]

Why do you guys think Ferrari can just jump back in top 3? Is the idea that FIA crippled Ferrari's engine which was optimized to "cheat" and that now that they won't use fuel flow shenanigans they will jump back in power? As in the engine was suboptimal to run on normal fuel flow? I don't know, I find it strange that Ferrari used fuel flow shenanigans and that when they were banned, they lost a significant amount of power. While I understand the funding and motivation they have to catch up, engines usually don't jump from 4th best to the best or second best in a season.

My expectation is that Ferrari will close the gap, but they will still remain midfield. I am most concerned with Aston Martin. While I don't respect their copy cat design of last years car, it did allow them to bring their design up to state of the art. With new mechanical bits they got from Mercedes, some of their own design work (they usually developed well on small budget in the past) and potentially much better understanding of this Mercedes concept car, they are the team that worries me the most for McLaren.

Red Bull unless Honda suffers serious reliability issues is likely uncatchable. Mercedes the same.

[nola]

Visually, the 2009 cars all looked extremely simplistic. The new rules eliminated most of the incredibly complex aero that had been developed up to 2008. Even the title winning Brawn looks like a toy next to the 2008 cars.

Good point. I am not 100% convinced. The bulk of the KERS system seemed to serve McLaren poorly, the Brawn seems far more tightly packaged. But even beyond that, details like the bargeboards, rear wing end plates, and out wash front wing end plates, are lacking on the McLaren compared to the Brawn.

Nothing in the 2009 rules package told McLaren or BMW Sauber to abandon their 2008 sidepods, and adopt such square sidepods with no undercut... Unless they simply couldn't fit the KERS battery any other way.

https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... 2148-1.jpg

Hm, is that a completely fair comparison?
That rear wing on the McLaren looks like the 2008 version.
I seem to remember that they used the old wing in testing from the beginning.
Or do I remember incorrectly?
I have this strong feeling that we all went 'Wow, huge problems at McLaren!' when they turned up with the old wing.

[SmallSoldier]

Why do you guys think Ferrari can just jump back in top 3? Is the idea that FIA crippled Ferrari's engine which was optimized to "cheat" and that now that they won't use fuel flow shenanigans they will jump back in power? As in the engine was suboptimal to run on normal fuel flow? I don't know, I find it strange that Ferrari used fuel flow shenanigans and that when they were banned, they lost a significant amount of power. While I understand the funding and motivation they have to catch up, engines usually don't jump from 4th best to the best or second best in a season.

My expectation is that Ferrari will close the gap, but they will still remain midfield. I am most concerned with Aston Martin. While I don't respect their copy cat design of last years car, it did allow them to bring their design up to state of the art. With new mechanical bits they got from Mercedes, some of their own design work (they usually developed well on small budget in the past) and potentially much better understanding of this Mercedes concept car, they are the team that worries me the most for McLaren.

Red Bull unless Honda suffers serious reliability issues is likely uncatchable. Mercedes the same.

Why Ferrari can jump back into the top 3? There are 500+ million reasons for it... The reality is that they have had the resources all through 2020 and without been able to work on the 2022 cars, I expect them to have focus on their 2021 car as much as possible so that they can change rapidly into 2022 (which they may have done so already).

Yes, they didn’t had a great car in 2020, but they still have the capability and skill in the team to bring a good / great car to the grid... Underestimating them would be a big mistake in my opinion... And that’s not considering that if they have “solved” their engine issues and now are on par or close to the rest instead of clearly behind, they will be in the fight... We saw last year that even when they had an engine handicap, Leclerc placed that car sometimes ahead of the midfield.

Finally, we still haven’t seeing the cars on track, so it is still a guessing game in regards to who adapted to the changes in regulations the best, I do expect Mercedes and RBR to continue to be at the front of the grid, simply because last season they still had more resources than the rest of the grid and therefore more brain power to deal with the new regulations.


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[Zynerji]

Ferrari fixing their rear suspension with an upgraded engine can easily surprise with the size of a performance jump.

We have no idea what they may have learned during last year. Since they couldn't upgrade the engine, they had optimizations to mitigate the issues. That could pay bonkers if they incorporated those fixes in hardware and those optimizations squeeze out a few more %.

[mwillems]

Why do you guys think Ferrari can just jump back in top 3? Is the idea that FIA crippled Ferrari's engine which was optimized to "cheat" and that now that they won't use fuel flow shenanigans they will jump back in power? As in the engine was suboptimal to run on normal fuel flow? I don't know, I find it strange that Ferrari used fuel flow shenanigans and that when they were banned, they lost a significant amount of power. While I understand the funding and motivation they have to catch up, engines usually don't jump from 4th best to the best or second best in a season.

My expectation is that Ferrari will close the gap, but they will still remain midfield. I am most concerned with Aston Martin. While I don't respect their copy cat design of last years car, it did allow them to bring their design up to state of the art. With new mechanical bits they got from Mercedes, some of their own design work (they usually developed well on small budget in the past) and potentially much better understanding of this Mercedes concept car, they are the team that worries me the most for McLaren.

Red Bull unless Honda suffers serious reliability issues is likely uncatchable. Mercedes the same.

I'm going to bullet, cos it's clearer, not to be a d*ck

• Because Sainz will probably do a better job this year than Vettel last year

• Leclerc will probably improve yet again

• The Ferrari was catching the midfields pace by the end of the year

• The engine will almost certainly have made a good jump forward compared to last year

• They are absolutely stuffed with cash and talent

• They are Ferrari

It's hard not to overstate point one, because Leclerc was able to get a lot of points from that Ferrari, and like at RP, if they had a 2nd driver that was performing (Vettel finished on a third of Leclercs points), they would have been streets ahead of where they ended up.

[FittingMechanics]

I'm going to bullet, cos it's clearer, not to be a d*ck

• Because Sainz will probably do a better job this year than Vettel last year

• Leclerc will probably improve yet again

• The Ferrari was catching the midfields pace by the end of the year

• The engine will almost certainly have made a good jump forward compared to last year

• They are absolutely stuffed with cash and talent

• They are Ferrari

It's hard not to overstate point one, because Leclerc was able to get a lot of points from that Ferrari, and like at RP, if they had a 2nd driver that was performing (Vettel finished on a third of Leclercs points), they would have been streets ahead of where they ended up.

Even if Ferrari had two Leclercs, they'd still end up behind McLaren. Driver upgrade will help them in total points haul but the pace will need to come from the car.

My view is that the engine cannot make leaps in a single season. Only exception is if their 2020 engine was compromised by the FIA ruling. For example if they needed to compromise the engine to be able to "cheat" but then the cheat was banned.

I think they will be in the midfield fight, but not back in top 3.

[mwillems]

I'm going to bullet, cos it's clearer, not to be a d*ck

• Because Sainz will probably do a better job this year than Vettel last year

• Leclerc will probably improve yet again

• The Ferrari was catching the midfields pace by the end of the year

• The engine will almost certainly have made a good jump forward compared to last year

• They are absolutely stuffed with cash and talent

• They are Ferrari

It's hard not to overstate point one, because Leclerc was able to get a lot of points from that Ferrari, and like at RP, if they had a 2nd driver that was performing (Vettel finished on a third of Leclercs points), they would have been streets ahead of where they ended up.

Even if Ferrari had two Leclercs, they'd still end up behind McLaren. Driver upgrade will help them in total points haul but the pace will need to come from the car.

My view is that the engine cannot make leaps in a single season. Only exception is if their 2020 engine was compromised by the FIA ruling. For example if they needed to compromise the engine to be able to "cheat" but then the cheat was banned.

I think they will be in the midfield fight, but not back in top 3.

They would end up behind for the whole season yes, but the car had improved by the year end so I dont think they will start this season like last.

They won't touch RB, but it won't surprise me if they are fighting for P3.