2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

[nzjrs]

Not sure if this thought has been posted, but does anyone think the reduction in practice time could be a factor?
Perhaps less time for proper data collection on the hard tyres, and therefore maybe less certainty about the life would be in the race, possibly leading to greater potential for failures?

Certainly in Baku, given the practice sessions, I'd be surprised if many of the teams got all the data they wanted.

Perhaps - sufficient data was gathered that Pirelli felt the need to adjust the rear pressures and camber limits.

[El Scorchio]

No, I didn’t say at all he should keep it. That is what you are turning it in to with what to me feels for the sake of it. What I did do was specifically ask, I even pleaded for it, to not treat it as such. And still you found it necessary to do so. Which is always how these race threads seem to go.

Then, to come back to the point (pun intended);

Yes we have had this fastest lap point for years, and no, it almost never is “lost” due to a backmarker taking it away (I believe I read somewhere malaysia 2017 Kmag was the last time) but finishing a race with a DNF er still retaining fastest lap is pretty rare I think? It just made me think, it was actually set whilst in the top 10. That is why I posted it. I think Only Dans79 has so far replied to the question (with some very good points, making it clear that probably the current rules are simpler and thus better) instead of having a go at the poster.

What I am saying, though, is that I don't think it would ever have crossed your mind to think/question or post about if it wasn't Verstappen holding fastest lap and then DNF'ing because it wouldn't have impacted him. Just like the Monaco red flag. (and I'm know these others were not you- so this isn't something personal against you- but track limits and red flag unlapping only ever became an issue after people perceived Verstappen was unfairly disadvantaged because of it- when actually all these things have been happening for years with no similar outcry.) There just seems to be a sense of entitlement creeping into people's minds and influencing thoughts.

It may surprise you that I don't actually have it in for you at all. I'm talking about a general mindset which seems to be becoming more prevalent. FWIW I think you're a pleasant, well intentioned and articulate poster and you attempt to be constructive for the most part. Some things I agree with and some things I don't. But IMO judgement and bigger picture often seems clouded by feelings for a certain driver.

This is a far wider comment than just us two, but I think it's important for us all as a more general point to remember the long standing rules of the sport shouldn't be constantly questioned just because we don't like how they've impacted our favourite driver on a certain race weekend. The sport in terms of regulations isn't broken, unfair or in need of attention or 'fixing' every time something doesn't go the way we want it to.

Ok, thanks for that and fair enough. It helps to learn how you think of me in general because I indeed felt a bit like I was getting scolded. I don't feel entitled personally, or at least, I don' think so (but perception and reality are often not the same) and I tried my best not to write the post like that. But you are correct that it would likely never have crossed my mind if it weren't Verstappen. Otoh, we all must remember that rules are there for all. Could as well have been Lewis or Charles or any other usual front runner. In that gest it perhaps would have been an option to slightly refine the rule. But in the meantime Dans for example already pointed out some potential pitfalls with that and your comment about not changing the rules at play when not strictly necessary also hold true. You must be very carefully not to fi anything that is not broken.

But to finish let me reiterate that I don't feel Max was robbed of that point or that he needed to get it. Crash is crash, racing is hard, you can lose it all in the last corner of the last race (hope that was not a jinx (F*&k me)). That is all part of the joy of it (the pain also).

Been away for a couple of days so just picking this up!

It wasn't my intention to scold you for sure or make you feel bad. I can be quite forthright which isn't always helpful and I know people don't always like it, but at the same time try to be honest and call a spade a spade. Not always an easy balance. And I do enjoy a bit of back and forth with people who can do it intelligently and respectfully- I would absolutely count you as one of those people on here.

And wouldn't it be boring if we just all meekly agreed with each other about everything!

[El Scorchio]

Not sure if this thought has been posted, but does anyone think the reduction in practice time could be a factor?
Perhaps less time for proper data collection on the hard tyres, and therefore maybe less certainty about the life would be in the race, possibly leading to greater potential for failures?

Certainly in Baku, given the practice sessions, I'd be surprised if many of the teams got all the data they wanted.

Perhaps - sufficient data was gathered that Pirelli felt the need to adjust the rear pressures and camber limits.

Yup, very true- or did they do it as a precaution because they were worried there wasn't enough? Maybe they had enough bits and bobs from all the teams, but I wonder if the teams individually had enough?

Either way, I definitely hope we don't see those blowouts again. They've ruined or at least impacted too many races in the last couple of years.

[Sieper]

we can jump to any conclusion based on previous accidents caused by debris. Debris is broken pieces of carbon fiber, so there are no two equal pieces of debris, so there are no two equal damages caused by debris. One can instantly blow the tire, other can cause small damage so the tire can still work for some time, but when it reaches it´s maximum load at the straight (no fast corners in baku) due to the maximum downforce at maximum speed (no DRS) it fails.

I´m not saying that´s what happened, only that we can´t know what happened, it could be caused by debris, or it could be a tire construction or design failure, we can´t know, and we probably will never know

Pirelly asking for higher pressures on friday is suspicious tough

Yes but by your own argument you can argue that the construction plays a role here. Since no two pieces of carbon are the same, the likelihood of two tires getting cut in exactly the same spot, and in the the same way, is virtually non existent.

Therefore if you see exactly the same failure mode it has to be at least affected by the design.

My guess is that they are still having the same issue that they reported at the British GP. Perhaps the process is triggered by a cut, but the main problem would be that the tire starts developing a growing subsurface hotspot by internal friction. In the past the belt would delaminate and fly off. But since they strengthened that area the failure moved to the edge of the belt.

Also the fact that you see almost no fiber pullout could be an indication that this area has been pretty hot (though this could also be caused by other reasons).

Two tyres definitely don't need to be cut in the same spot to puncture... Not sure if you meant the same spot on the track.

The British GP failures were concluded as debris if i remember... So some more food for thought.

How can it be debris if it happened to the same cars after equally long stints. Yes, a lot of debris that hit the both Mercedesses. Could be. But nobody else. How? And now again, and in Imola. All on the inner shoulder. That is a lot of debris on the exact same place. And all others escaping unscathed each time. It doesn’t compute in my mind.

[Sieper]

Still not reaching the conclusion that there is something wrong will only mean it will happen again. And it might just happen to your Lewis again this time. Could be anybody.

To me it's about driver safety more than anything else. Even though the 2 failures were at high speed, they were minor accidents because The cars where close to the walls before the accident and traveling parallel to the walls. Thus the G load experienced by the drivers when impacting the walls was low.

if the failures has happened in Parabolica, 130R, Eau Rouge, Maggots, Becketts , or other similar corners, the accidents would have been much more severe.

I agree it is Dangerous. Stroll was in a “blind” spot. I fully understood his fear. They are realistic, getting t boned at that speeds. Or like you say, in a high speed corner. But those corners are usually well protected. It are places where you usually won’t crash (like with Grosjean last year) that are the most dangerous. Plus, it can ruin the WDC fight. It already has a big impact now.

[dans79]

But those corners are usually well protected. It are places where you usually won’t crash (like with Grosjean last year) that are the most dangerous. Plus, it can ruin the WDC fight. It already has a big impact now.

They aren't really protected for worst case scenarios though. The protection is more geared towards realistic accidents, where the driver has some amount of control, and hits the barriers at a substantially reduced velocity.

For example Sainz in russia 2015. He had brake failure and hit the wall head on at only 93 MPH. He experienced 46G of declaration, even though he hit a section of the wall protected by 3 layers of TecPro barriers.

A good example is what rosberg said about baku pit entry over the weekend.
https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/masi- ... y/6547378/

“I’m going to show you one of the places I always found the most dangerous of the whole year,” Rosberg said in the video, having won the only F1 race he contested in Baku back in 2016.

“It was quite scary. You’re arriving down here now at 350 kph, now look what’s on the left [referring to the pit entry].

“Imagine something breaks on the car here. You’re at 350 kph. On the left, there’s just a wall, and it’s facing you. If something breaks and you’re in that wall, it’s the end, there’s no more you.

“This is one of the most scary places I’ve ever driven an F1 car in. To go by there just feels ridiculously wrong. But you have to try and blend it out.”

He isn't really wrong either, if Stroll or Max had had their failures on the left side of the track right before the pit entry, it would've been a massive shunt. The leftmost section of the wall is perpendicular to the direction of travel, and the rest of it is angled significantly enough to generate a massive g load.

[Edax]

Two tyres definitely don't need to be cut in the same spot to puncture... Not sure if you meant the same spot on the track.

The British GP failures were concluded as debris if i remember... So some more food for thought.

The way I read the Pirelli remarks from Britain is that the failure sequence is started by a non-penetrating cut, caused by debris or sharp curbs. That starts creating a hotspot. The hotspot starts locally to soften the resin that binds the plies. This causes more internal friction, which causes the hotspot to grow etc. Until something gives which likely would be at maximum load (longest straight).

I think the clearest example is Vettel in spa where the whole face detached while the tire stayed inflated.

Based on that it makes sense to raise tire pressures since this reduces the deformation per rotation and thus Internal friction/ heat generation.

What I tried to say is that the failures we have seen last race seem to follow that MO. Only the weakest point in the tire appeared to have changed from the belt to the edge of the belt.

But it does not seem to be a case of a shard penetrating the tire followed by an immediate kaboom.

[e30ernest]

A good example is what rosberg said about baku pit entry over the weekend.
https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/masi- ... y/6547378/

“I’m going to show you one of the places I always found the most dangerous of the whole year,” Rosberg said in the video, having won the only F1 race he contested in Baku back in 2016.

“It was quite scary. You’re arriving down here now at 350 kph, now look what’s on the left [referring to the pit entry].

“Imagine something breaks on the car here. You’re at 350 kph. On the left, there’s just a wall, and it’s facing you. If something breaks and you’re in that wall, it’s the end, there’s no more you.

“This is one of the most scary places I’ve ever driven an F1 car in. To go by there just feels ridiculously wrong. But you have to try and blend it out.”

He isn't really wrong either, if Stroll or Max had had their failures on the left side of the track right before the pit entry, it would've been a massive shunt. The leftmost section of the wall is perpendicular to the direction of travel, and the rest of it is angled significantly enough to generate a massive g load.
https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/amp ... here-1.jpg

I was about to cite that. Rosberg made that comment before the race, during his circuit drive/overview videos in his YouTube channel. Lando said pretty much the same thing reacting to Max's crash, saying Max was lucky that when he counter-steered to the left, the car did not go left because then it would have been much worse.

[ispano6]

What would be the odd that a debris will cut the tyre and instantly destroy the construction?

Twice in the same race, both the rear left, on the same long straight, same hardness, with almost the same number of laps on them?

Both Lance and Max were putting in very quick laps before the tire failures. Max did set the fastest lap on the hard tires not long before they failed, on the longest, fastest straight of the season. And Max wasn't even running full power either - he was managing his pace. So either the clean up job of Stroll's crash was a pathetic job, or Max literally drove the tires off his car.

Pirelli's verdict after Kvyat's tyre failed at Silverstone.

“Together with Scuderia AlphaTauri, Pirelli has concluded an investigation into the precise cause of the incident that resulted in Daniil Kvyat hitting the wall during the British Grand Prix on lap 12,” a statement said.

“A separate mechanical issue led to the inside of the right-rear wheel rim overheating, which in turn burned the bead of the tyre (the part of the tyre that connects the rubber to the wheel). As a result, the bead was no longer able to seal the tyre onto the rim. This is what caused the subsequent deflation, with the tyre itself playing no part in the cause of the accident.”

[Andres125sx]

we can jump to any conclusion based on previous accidents caused by debris. Debris is broken pieces of carbon fiber, so there are no two equal pieces of debris, so there are no two equal damages caused by debris. One can instantly blow the tire, other can cause small damage so the tire can still work for some time, but when it reaches it´s maximum load at the straight (no fast corners in baku) due to the maximum downforce at maximum speed (no DRS) it fails.

I´m not saying that´s what happened, only that we can´t know what happened, it could be caused by debris, or it could be a tire construction or design failure, we can´t know, and we probably will never know

Pirelly asking for higher pressures on friday is suspicious tough

Yes but by your own argument you can argue that the construction plays a role here.

Of course, that was my point, both can be the reason and we will never know

Since no two pieces of carbon are the same, the likelihood of two tires getting cut in exactly the same spot, and in the the same way, is virtually non existent.

They don´t need to be cut in that exact spot, they could have been slightly cut at any other point, but any damaged part will fail at the most demanding point, wich in the case of tires is the straight when the load is at its max

If it´s a construction problem they will also fail at the point of max load (straight) tough, so we basically can´t know what was the real reason

[Andres125sx]

How can it be debris if it happened to the same cars after equally long stints. Yes, a lot of debris that hit the both Mercedesses. Could be. But nobody else. How? And now again, and in Imola. All on the inner shoulder. That is a lot of debris on the exact same place. And all others escaping unscathed each time. It doesn’t compute in my mind.

Not that odd, debris usually are flat part of broken carbon fiber. A flat part stands falt on the tarmac so a tire can run over it without suffering any damage. But once the front tires, or just the car go over it, that small carbon fiber part will fly, and if it goes into the rear tires then it will not be flat on the tarmac, it can be at any random position. If that position is more or less vertical, it will be a knife into the tire. It is perfectly possible that 10 cars go over debris with no problems, and the 11th car get a puncture

Getting a puncture after going over debris is just a matter of luck, there´s nothing the driver can to to avoid it apart from dodging the debris, but even that is quite difficult from the driver point of view as they can´t see the tarmac wich is 3m in front of the car, they can only see further away and debris can be quite small so watching a small piece of debris 30-50-100m ahead is quite difficult if not impossible depending on the size, and even a small 3-4cm piece of carbon can cut a tire if it goes into the tire more or less perpendicular

[El Scorchio]

I find it hard to believe either of these two were caused by debris or something cutting the tyre. Especially Stroll’s one.

Same tyre, same portion of the track, aged tyres. Structural failure. Maybe even a manufacturing defect.

[Wouter]

'Red Bull and other teams may not have adhered to tire pressure guidelines'

Research Pirelli

The Italian tire supplier has now started an investigation into the cause behind the blowouts, but does not want to say anything about the course of this. More is expected to be released by the end of next week. However, La Gazetta dello Sport, Italy's largest sports newspaper, already seems to have gained some information. The sports section writes that several teams - including Red Bull Racing and Aston Martin - may not have adhered to the prescribed tire pressure.

Construction error and debris excluded

According to the newspaper, initial investigations have shown that it is not a construction or manufacturing defect. Debris would also be excluded. It is said that Pirelli therefore suspects that a number of teams have not adhered to the recommended tire pressure. The Italian company initially prescribed tire pressures of 20 psi (front) and 19 psi (rear), but later increased this to 20 psi and 22 psi respectively.

Lower tire pressure improves cornering grip, but increases the risk of tire blowouts. Pirelli cannot check the tire pressures of the teams during the race. La Gazetto dello Sport seems to be relying on sources within Pirelli.

[Capharol]

'Red Bull and other teams may not have adhered to tire pressure guidelines'

Research Pirelli

The Italian tire supplier has now started an investigation into the cause behind the blowouts, but does not want to say anything about the course of this. More is expected to be released by the end of next week. However, La Gazetta dello Sport, Italy's largest sports newspaper, already seems to have gained some information. The sports section writes that several teams - including Red Bull Racing and Aston Martin - may not have adhered to the prescribed tire pressure.

Construction error and debris excluded

According to the newspaper, initial investigations have shown that it is not a construction or manufacturing defect. Debris would also be excluded. It is said that Pirelli therefore suspects that a number of teams have not adhered to the recommended tire pressure. The Italian company initially prescribed tire pressures of 20 psi (front) and 19 psi (rear), but later increased this to 20 psi and 22 psi respectively.

Lower tire pressure improves cornering grip, but increases the risk of tire blowouts. Pirelli cannot check the tire pressures of the teams during the race. La Gazetto dello Sport seems to be relying on sources within Pirelli.

they [Pirelli] assuming its the tyre pressure, because the debris excuse is outdated now, so we [Pirelli] start to blame the teams themselves, and because we [Pirelli] cant check it anymore we wash our hands in innocence...

this is so predictable like in a horror move, either the person rans up to the roof or into the basement

[El Scorchio]

'Red Bull and other teams may not have adhered to tire pressure guidelines'

Research Pirelli

The Italian tire supplier has now started an investigation into the cause behind the blowouts, but does not want to say anything about the course of this. More is expected to be released by the end of next week. However, La Gazetta dello Sport, Italy's largest sports newspaper, already seems to have gained some information. The sports section writes that several teams - including Red Bull Racing and Aston Martin - may not have adhered to the prescribed tire pressure.

Construction error and debris excluded

According to the newspaper, initial investigations have shown that it is not a construction or manufacturing defect. Debris would also be excluded. It is said that Pirelli therefore suspects that a number of teams have not adhered to the recommended tire pressure. The Italian company initially prescribed tire pressures of 20 psi (front) and 19 psi (rear), but later increased this to 20 psi and 22 psi respectively.

Lower tire pressure improves cornering grip, but increases the risk of tire blowouts. Pirelli cannot check the tire pressures of the teams during the race. La Gazetto dello Sport seems to be relying on sources within Pirelli.

they [Pirelli] assuming its the tyre pressure, because the debris excuse is outdated now, so we [Pirelli] start to blame the teams themselves, and because we [Pirelli] cant check it anymore we wash our hands in innocence...

this is so predictable like in a horror move, either the person rans up to the roof or into the basement

Not saying they have done it in this instance, or that no-one else ever has, but Red Bull have been suspected/accused of fiddling with or manipulating tyre pressures in the past, haven’t they, IIRC?