Toto Wolf - Formula 1 should be leading the pack in sustainable fuels and biofuels instead of electric

[Jolle]

A V12 putting out 1000bhp isn't "insane tech", it's relatively easy. Insane tech is getting that from a small engine and other gubbins.


The Zonda does have a speed limiter of 130kph.

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/image ... t-sign.jpg

Plus, in Europe is land of the natural nemesis of the American muscle car: the roundabout (which are actually quite fun in a 3 cylinder Aygo).

Say Whaaa...

Dang son, them Duke boys'll soon show you how a big ol' Charger gits 'em roundabouts done 'n' dusted!




(& no, it sure aint GGI, that's stunt driver Rhys Millen, driving)

Nah, those aren’t roundabouts, those are bendy straights. Anyway, going sideways in a battleship like that on a country road here, you’ll end up like a suez blocker, in the hedges on both sides.
Just wondering. My guess is you’re not from europe, but have you ever been here?

[PhillipM]

You want to see how viable that is, watch the latest Grand Tour for American cars in Scotland

And many european villages/towns are far worse than that.

[adrianjordan]

You want to see how viable that is, watch the latest Grand Tour for American cars in Scotland

And many european villages/towns are far worse than that.

I'm remembering Clarkson driving some big American car, can't remember which, through Chipping Norton back when he was still on Top Gear

[Jolle]

This made me chuckle

[J.A.W.]

Nah, those aren’t roundabouts, those are bendy straights. Anyway, going sideways in a battleship like that on a country road here, you’ll end up like a suez blocker, in the hedges on both sides.
Just wondering. My guess is you’re not from europe, but have you ever been here?

Nah, but my great uncle did do a bit of touring there as a teenager in a Porsche electro-hybrid,
& he reckoned that hedges/trees/barns weren't too troublesome to a seventy tonne battlewagon...

[nzjrs]

You want to see how viable that is, watch the latest Grand Tour for American cars in Scotland

And many european villages/towns are far worse than that.

The thing i noticed when I moved to UK was in many places on the countryside they have similar, but not moreso, narrow country lanes as continental Europe..... but then they park 146 cars on the street in both directions!

Has it always been this way? The houses are so small the density of cars is crazy and no one has off street parking because of the density and the cost.

[Tommy Cookers]

... narrow country lanes as continental Europe..... but then they park 146 cars on the street in both directions!
Has it always been this way? The houses are so small the density of cars is crazy and no one has off street parking because of the density and the cost.

the UK economy is built on a foundation of usury and asset (property) speculation
we get richer (on paper) by not getting richer (in asset size/quality) ....and ...
much of the UK was and is overpopulated (finally it's emerged that there's 4 million more people than we were told)

so, yes it has always been that way
but now cars are 0.5 metres wider than fits the country roads (or the garages anywhere)

30 years ago Japanese cars were narrow because of Japan's old towns and streets
20 years ago Korean cars were the same
but now everything is German-style fat-arsed cars
so no-one stays on their own side of the centre line (except me)

[PhillipM]

Yep, there's 60mph/100kph lanes around here you wouldn't even get an american muscle car down without taking paint off either side, never mind trying to go sideways

[Big Tea]

Yep, there's 60mph/100kph lanes around here you wouldn't even get an american muscle car down without taking paint off either side, never mind trying to go sideways

Although there is a bypass, our original village is still here and in some sections you can not open the car door if you want to get out. The houses have no front or pavement and the door step is right on the road. ( Most of the door steps are 6inches high ). There is a 10mph limit there.

[NL_Fer]

Formula 1 should be leading the pack in sustainable fuels and biofuels

This does not mean, manufactures need develop any new internal combustion engine, for their powerunit to run on those synthetic fuels. Current 1.6 V6T can run just fine in them, with some little modification. Ofcourse manufactures will sell combustion engines for decades, but that does not mean they are willing to develop another high tech engine. Even an Argentina Beetle ran fine on bio-ethanol.

So don’t be surprised if we will see a slight modified version of current 1.6 V6T on new fuel in 2025/2026. And if Porsche and Audi want’s to join, but start to complain about the advantage current manufacturers have, they could impose some more restrictions on ICE power output to make it easier for any new manufacturer to blend in.

[ispano6]

... narrow country lanes as continental Europe..... but then they park 146 cars on the street in both directions!
Has it always been this way? The houses are so small the density of cars is crazy and no one has off street parking because of the density and the cost.

the UK economy is built on a foundation of usury and asset (property) speculation
we get richer (on paper) by not getting richer (in asset size/quality) ....and ...
much of the UK was and is overpopulated (finally it's emerged that there's 4 million more people than we were told)

so, yes it has always been that way
but now cars are 0.5 metres wider than fits the country roads (or the garages anywhere)

30 years ago Japanese cars were narrow because of Japan's old towns and streets
20 years ago Korean cars were the same
but now everything is German-style fat-arsed cars
so no-one stays on their own side of the centre line (except me)

Most of the cars driven in Japan today are narrow with tiny wheels and Kei-cars. It's the "Japanese branded" cars sold outside of Japan that are jumbo sized. It's too bad cars like the Honda S660 and N-Box aren't sold world wide.

[taperoo2k]

Most, if not all, of the fuel companies will be spending A LOT on developing a carbon neutral synth fuel that can replace petrol.

At which point ICE's make sense again.

They are already spending money on synthetic fuels, which rely upon a source of hydrogen that is produced using renewable energy. I expect the majority of cars will be EV and hydrogen fuel in the future, with ICE as a niche. F1 will have some tough choices ahead, especially if synthetic fuels don't pan out as envisioned.

Anyway just wish Mercedes would hurry up and announce whose got the second seat in 2022.

If they dont concede to electric, hydrogen makes most sense for F1.

Electric is generating electricity, storing it with high efficiency (albeit low density) and using it with an efficient drivetrain.

Hydrogen is taking the same energy, storing it inefficiently (because you lose part of the energy in producing hydrogen), but with medium density, and feeding it to a moderately efficient drivetrain. Not really sensible for commuting, but the range gains may outweigh the energy losses for certain heavy-duty applications. F1 could be one.

Synfuel is just storing the same energy very inefficiently (you need many processing steps, making hydrogen, capturing CO2, synthesising hydrocarbons), albeit at high density, and feeding it to a (mature) inefficient drivetrain. Sensible only for very niche applications and aviation. No amount of development by carmakers will change that, as the large amount of energy loss is inherent to the many processing steps (more steps always means more losses), and the lossy nature of ICEs. If F1 goes this direction, thats fine, but its purely for show. As long as green energy is not abundant (which it will not be for decades) synfuel can by no means be called green, as it requires huge amounts of extra energy that could have been used to green up other applications. Since F1 itself is a minor consumer, it's fine if they use synfuel for spectacle. But if the larger car market would use synfuel to keep the ICE alive, that would set back energy transition ambitions immensely.

It's not going to be either hydrogen or battery EV's. We are going to need both for different applications. Synthfuels seem like a stop gap measure more than the future and the energy required to produce them might not make them a viable fuel for mass market (strip out the subsidies for Oil and current fuels wouldn't be viable). Niche applications like F1 ? Would probably work.

F1 has to look at the logistics of transporting equipment and people to reduce carbon footprints. I guess F1 paddocks could be powered using renewable sources (or on site hydrogen based generators). The big shipping companies are starting to invest in more carbon neutral ships. Overall F1 is well positioned to make the transition from a carbon fuel based system to something that is as near to carbon neutral or carbon free as possible. Racing is of course a vital part of the sport, but logistics are just as important.