Pirelli 2013

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kilcoo316
kilcoo316
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Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

Re: Pirelli 2013

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bhallg2k wrote:The engine specifications are ostensibly contrived for safety and cost considerations; wings are ostensibly contrived for cornering speeds; circuits are contrived for safety and because they're, well, circuits. Either way, those arguments can be made.
All fair enough except circuits - why do all new circuits go for the Tilke template of slow corner - long straight - slow corner?

Contrived to help overtaking? Yep.

bhallg2k wrote: Tires, on the other hand, are contrived expressly to spice things up, to make F1 something it's never been. There's no other reason for their silly putty existence.
If tyres were designed/manufactured as per a tyre war, then the cornering speeds would become dangerously high overnight. Its another reason for the single-supplier system - a lid can be kept on performance.

bhall
bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Pirelli 2013

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I hate the Tikedromes, too. Talk about boring circuits...

And you know just as well as I do there's a difference between control tires (think: 2007 - 2010) and funhouse tires (think: Pirelli). There's no way around the fact that the latter are designed solely as ultra-emphemeral timebombs of degradation in order for F1 to put on The Best Show Ever™. You either like it, or you don't.

That said, it's not as bad as last year - though the super soft is just embarrassing.

I wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with the whole thing if it weren't for the combination of egg-shell tires and DRS. Exactly how much overtaking do fans need, and haven't they heard of NASCAR?

flmkane
flmkane
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Joined: 08 Oct 2012, 08:13

Re: Pirelli 2013

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What can us poor fans do about this though? Bernie is under the impression that the new tyres are a good thing. I'm sure the FIA likes them. Presenters, team principals and drivers are probably being forced to be 'politically correct'.

The truth is, I believe the Pirellis and DRS has turned F1 into something more akin to a reality gameshow. Here we are, yearning for Prost vs Senna, Hakkinnen vs Schumacher or (dare I say it) Alonso vs Hamilton. However, we are being treated to a lottery where the tyres play the key role in deciding the winner.

F1 should be a sport, a competition testing both driving and engineering skills. It should be about the best engineers in the world being allowed to build the best cars in the world, which are then driven by the best drivers in the world. And the drivers compete against each other, giving everything they've got, lap after lap, with the winner being the best car and machine combination.

The battle between two great drivers is a thrill to watch. Though many laps may go by without an overtake, the fight goes on and on. One man trying to overtake and the other defending. We see them on the edge of disaster of long stints at a time, fighting withing millimeters of a crash, until perhaps the driver from behind can overtake, or if the driver ahead can hold him off long enough to make his pit stop strategy work.

However nowadays, we have been robbed of that spectacle. With the Pirelli tyres, true battles are impossible to see. The person ahead cant really defend at all. If they do, then their tyre loses LAPS worth of life. The guy behind just closes in at a nice and easy pace over several laps, then uses DRS. Not to discredit their phenomenal skills, but thats all it is. Maintain race pace, get close and get past.

Furthermore, races are nowadays just as strategy intensive as the refueling days. Pit stop timing and race strategy decides the race winner, not battles on the track. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, because I personally enjoy seeing a good pit stop. It may seem strange, but I love seeing that element of a race, because after all it is a team sport. However, it has become too much a part of the race, in my opinion even more than the refueling era. At least back then, if an overtake happened it would be exciting, an edge of the seat, thudding heartbeat spectacle.

To make things worse, engine development is frozen, transmission development has been regulated into irrelevance, the rules have made the body work so restricted that the cars look the same and we have frozen engine maps.

Who wants to see such a championship? If it weren't for the great drivers we have now, it would have been the most boring era in F1, because the spectacle has been lost. People outside F1 dont care about Fernando Alonso nearly winning last year. They care about the cars. Really they do. They all know F1 cars are the fastest cars in the world. They all believe that F1 cars are the most technologically advanced. Everyone would at least like to see a demonstration run of an F1 car, for the sheer spectacle of it, because they believe F1 cars are mad. But all the rule changes since circa 2006 have been clipping their wings ( :wink: ) and they are no longer the mad, dangerous and exciting cars that people think they are. One friend of mine was shocked when I told him that F1 cars are slower now than in 2004-05. Another stopped watching F1 due to Pirelli. That guy started watching only in 2009 due to the brilliance of Brawn, so he's not a hardcore fan either.

On top of that, getting rid of all the great circuits of the past for new and boring circuits. Like Abu Dhabi.

And I also believe that Pirelli caused the demise of racing in the wet, due to their wet tyres being bad. I think the FIA are covering it up.

Although there is light at the end of the tunnel due to the 2014 engines, currently I wish I could kidnap Bernie, stuff him in one of his second hand cars and roll it off a pier, then replace him with three people-Schumacher, Prost and Byrne. Then we'd have a REAL sport.

bhall
bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Pirelli 2013

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flmkane wrote:What can us poor fans do about this though?

[...]
Nothing. We're in the minority. Most fans love this ---.

I celebrate your passion, though.

fiohaa
fiohaa
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Joined: 19 Apr 2012, 21:18

Re: Pirelli 2013

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bhallg2k wrote:
kilcoo316 wrote:[...]

The whole thing is contrived! :roll:
The engine specifications are ostensibly contrived for safety and cost considerations; wings are ostensibly contrived for cornering speeds; circuits are contrived for safety and because they're, well, circuits. Either way, those arguments can be made.

Tires, on the other hand, are contrived expressly to spice things up, to make F1 something it's never been. There's no other reason for their silly putty existence.
yeh also all the other things which are contrived (i.e. the whole car) in the past have never stopped the drivers from pushing every lap to their own limits. these tyres however do.

but hey, it improves the show doesn't it, as all the drivers repeatedly have to say just to remind the viewers how amazing it all is. As long as the cars come home in 1 piece with all the sponsors still showing, and there have been plenty of passing (doesn't matter what the pass is), that constitutes a good show, job done, casual viewer happy.

Richard
Richard
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Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: Pirelli 2013

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fiohaa wrote:yeh also all the other things which are contrived (i.e. the whole car) in the past have never stopped the drivers from pushing every lap to their own limits. these tyres however do.
I think the underlying issue is that technology has improved so much that strategy is now a one dimensional issue, ie tyres.

In the past "pushing to the limit" meant trying to keep your car in one piece. Attrition rates were 30-40% of the cars on the start grid. Cars once struggled to stay on track but drivers can nowadays take corners at full throttle. Drive by wire means drivers are no longer on the limit changing gears, hence a lot fewer mishaps due to missed gear changes. There are many other examples.

The fact that we see so few cars off track and so few mechanical failures shows that all the limitations that created the traditional racing spectacle no longer exist. If we had everlasting tyres then F1 will become a time trial because all variables are controlled by the reliability of technology.

fiohaa
fiohaa
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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richard_leeds wrote:
fiohaa wrote:yeh also all the other things which are contrived (i.e. the whole car) in the past have never stopped the drivers from pushing every lap to their own limits. these tyres however do.
I think the underlying issue is that technology has improved so much that strategy is now a one dimensional issue, ie tyres.

In the past "pushing to the limit" meant trying to keep your car in one piece. Attrition rates were 30-40% of the cars on the start grid. Cars once struggled to stay on track but drivers can nowadays take corners at full throttle. Drive by wire means drivers are no longer on the limit changing gears, hence a lot fewer mishaps due to missed gear changes. There are many other examples.

The fact that we see so few cars off track and so few mechanical failures shows that all the limitations that created the traditional racing spectacle now longer exist. If we had everlasting tyres then F1 will become a time trial because all variables are controlled by the reliability of technology.
i specifically said 'their own limits'. none of those things youve mentioned stopped drivers from finding that limit of grip, pushing that line, and going as fast as they could physically go in the car given to them to drive. Technological change has got nothing to do with what im talking about.

now for the first time since ive started watching f1 in 1994, a component that actively Does stop the driver from pushing to his own limits. Its more car limited now than ever before.

Richard
Richard
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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My point is that the dominance of tyres is simply because a lot of other limits no longer exit.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Pirelli 2013

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If the tyres were constructed to enable the drivers to run the entire race on one set then there wouldn't be any racing except for the usual first corner stuff. We'd be back to the days of the Michael's 5-year run of titles and they were some of the most boring "races" I've ever seen. Processional. Dull. Overtaking was a rarity.

The thing about the current rules is that the driver and his engineer can come up with subtly different strategies (tyres and fuel load) and try to make them work. So the driver might try to do one less stop than the rest in order to leap frog some cars, or he might do an extra stop and hope that he can run sufficiently quickly to make up the time cost of the extra stop. He can run slightly less fuel and hope to eek out fuel and tyres or he can run slightly more fuel and hope to push the tyres a little bit harder than others are able.

F1 is a season-long game of strategy. It's not about driving flat out for 90 minutes. It never has been - tyre and fuel management have always played a role. Today's set of rules has made for some entertaining races and, at the end of the day, it is all about entertainment.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

fiohaa
fiohaa
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Joined: 19 Apr 2012, 21:18

Re: Pirelli 2013

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Just_a_fan wrote:If the tyres were constructed to enable the drivers to run the entire race on one set then there wouldn't be any racing except for the usual first corner stuff. We'd be back to the days of the Michael's 5-year run of titles and they were some of the most boring "races" I've ever seen. Processional. Dull. Overtaking was a rarity.

The thing about the current rules is that the driver and his engineer can come up with subtly different strategies (tyres and fuel load) and try to make them work. So the driver might try to do one less stop than the rest in order to leap frog some cars, or he might do an extra stop and hope that he can run sufficiently quickly to make up the time cost of the extra stop. He can run slightly less fuel and hope to eek out fuel and tyres or he can run slightly more fuel and hope to push the tyres a little bit harder than others are able.

F1 is a season-long game of strategy. It's not about driving flat out for 90 minutes. It never has been - tyre and fuel management have always played a role. Today's set of rules has made for some entertaining races and, at the end of the day, it is all about entertainment.
- i can't think of any overtakes which happened on Sunday that happened between 2 drivers who were on the same tyre phase. They were all due to DRS, or driver who had new tyres overtaking a driver with old tyres. They were hardly competitive overtakes.
- 5 year run of titles....well we've had a 3 year run of titles so far, under your beloved rules.
- 2003 was very competitive.
- from 1994 to 2008 fuel management never played a role, nor did tyres. They did drive flat out...for 90 minutes. Every race. I refer you to a press conference with Webber talking about this. With refuelling there was just as many options for strategy as there is nowadays. Nowadays the only strategy is 'how long do the tyres last with our car'. Thats it - thats the only thing defining the strategy.
- we don't have any racing now. It is not racing. The drivers are not racing, they are conserving tyres and hoping the car lasts the distance...if it does then great, if not then well...another pitstop is needed (Hamilton on Sunday).
- the best cars are still winning, so the only thing thats objectively changed is the reduction of driver skill required.

fiohaa
fiohaa
8
Joined: 19 Apr 2012, 21:18

Re: Pirelli 2013

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richard_leeds wrote:My point is that the dominance of tyres is simply because a lot of other limits no longer exit.
again my point is a lot of the other limits you talk about had no bearing on how fast the driver could go. They were still required to drive as fast as they could for as long as possible.

Huntresa
Huntresa
54
Joined: 03 Dec 2011, 11:33

Re: Pirelli 2013

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fiohaa wrote:
Just_a_fan wrote:If the tyres were constructed to enable the drivers to run the entire race on one set then there wouldn't be any racing except for the usual first corner stuff. We'd be back to the days of the Michael's 5-year run of titles and they were some of the most boring "races" I've ever seen. Processional. Dull. Overtaking was a rarity.

The thing about the current rules is that the driver and his engineer can come up with subtly different strategies (tyres and fuel load) and try to make them work. So the driver might try to do one less stop than the rest in order to leap frog some cars, or he might do an extra stop and hope that he can run sufficiently quickly to make up the time cost of the extra stop. He can run slightly less fuel and hope to eek out fuel and tyres or he can run slightly more fuel and hope to push the tyres a little bit harder than others are able.

F1 is a season-long game of strategy. It's not about driving flat out for 90 minutes. It never has been - tyre and fuel management have always played a role. Today's set of rules has made for some entertaining races and, at the end of the day, it is all about entertainment.
- i can't think of any overtakes which happened on Sunday that happened between 2 drivers who were on the same tyre phase. They were all due to DRS, or driver who had new tyres overtaking a driver with old tyres. They were hardly competitive overtakes.
- 5 year run of titles....well we've had a 3 year run of titles so far, under your beloved rules.
- 2003 was very competitive.
- from 1994 to 2008 fuel management never played a role, nor did tyres. They did drive flat out...for 90 minutes. Every race. I refer you to a press conference with Webber talking about this. With refuelling there was just as many options for strategy as there is nowadays. Nowadays the only strategy is 'how long do the tyres last with our car'. Thats it - thats the only thing defining the strategy.
- we don't have any racing now. It is not racing. The drivers are not racing, they are conserving tyres and hoping the car lasts the distance...if it does then great, if not then well...another pitstop is needed (Hamilton on Sunday).
- the best cars are still winning, so the only thing thats objectively changed is the reduction of driver skill required.

There was hardly as much strategy with fuel as there is with these tyres, with refueling you had a race that consisted of several sprint races. Also how has driver skills been reduced? Perserving tyres is a good and big skill, one that was once good to have when we didnt have specific tyre changing rules etc but then it was taken away when we got refueling cause they you did flat out between each fuel stop and didnt even think about tyres. But now the tyre management is back and its GOOD!
Last edited by Huntresa on 18 Mar 2013, 19:59, edited 1 time in total.

flmkane
flmkane
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Joined: 08 Oct 2012, 08:13

Re: Pirelli 2013

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richard_leeds wrote:My point is that the dominance of tyres is simply because a lot of other limits no longer exit.
Fair point. But the racing need not be as bad as it is now.

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Pirelli 2013

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Just_a_fan wrote:[...]
Today's set of rules has made for some entertaining races and, at the end of the day, it is all about entertainment.
That strongly depends on how one defines "entertainment."

I think today's F1 bears little resemblance to any period in F1 history, which was "entertaining" enough. The copious overtaking the new rules were meant to "restore" never happened in the first place; it was all a myth, perpetuated by sensationalist storytelling about "the good ol' days," when men were men, and women were men, too. (Huh? I don't know, either.)

Again, it doesn't really matter, though. Those of us who shutter at the thought of DRS zones and paper mache tires are vastly outnumbered by those who eagerly lap up both. So, this new paradigm is likely to stick around for a while.

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Pirelli 2013

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Yes it is,,,was ruined in the 70s...talk to Bernie and 92 Monaco is no way the same.
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