2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

[Big Mangalhit]

I should have said I meant it in sector 1. Sorry.

Far from me to criticise your post, just adding my two cents. Still thank you for all the information on the tables.

2015 ferrari PU last year in qualifying managed 8 kmh less than it does in 2016 fp1 on a speed trap that's purely power related at 315 kmh. Just pointing out progress there.

I still think that top speed has more to do with drag than power. At almost 300km/h you need a lot of HP to put one more km/h and only a small decrease in drag to have the same effect. Plus most teams prefer to deploy all the power in the beginning of the straight so they put down all the energy while there is the least amount of drag and get to 200km/h in the least amount of time. Nobody wants to put max energy on the end of the straight, usually they even prefer to harvest it.

So again I think top speed has little to do with engine performance, and more about ECU profiles and drag. Otherwise you would find a good correlation between engines and their position on top speed charts. But what we see is teams with different engines being all mixed together.

Most of the times we see pilots of the same team having bigger differences between each other than with other team's cars. That just shows how the setup can have a bigger influence on Max Speed.

[Vasconia]

And....... it's wet in FP2 ..... but not before Nico set a 107. 967 good job!

Nico is particularly strong here, Ferrari seems to be the second time(no surprises here) not that far from Lewis.

Ricciardo is reporting some problems with his PU.

[Juzh]

Far from me to criticise your post, just adding my two cents. Still thank you for all the information on the tables.

2015 ferrari PU last year in qualifying managed 8 kmh less than it does in 2016 fp1 on a speed trap that's purely power related at 315 kmh. Just pointing out progress there.

I still think that top speed has more to do with drag than power. At almost 300km/h you need a lot of HP to put one more km/h and only a small decrease in drag to have the same effect. Plus most teams prefer to deploy all the power in the beginning of the straight so they put down all the energy while there is the least amount of drag and get to 200km/h in the least amount of time. Nobody wants to put max energy on the end of the straight, usually they even prefer to harvest it.

So again I think top speed has little to do with engine performance, and more about ECU profiles and drag. Otherwise you would find a good correlation between engines and their position on top speed charts. But what we see is teams with different engines being all mixed together.

Most of the times we see pilots of the same team having bigger differences between each other than with other team's cars. That just shows how the setup can have a bigger influence on Max Speed.

Top speed is drag dependant, no doubt there.
But:
300 kmh is nothing for these V6 units. 315 is also not top speed on this circuit, just in this speed trap. Power and power alone is responsible for this increase in speed. There's no reason to assume ferrari is running significantly less downforce this year.
200 kmh is also pocket change. That's like 2.5s of full throttle. You're giving drag waaay too much importance here, and energy deployment waay too little.

ALL teams prefer to deploy energy on the beginning of the straights, but it changes nothing. Last year ferrari at their best managed significantly less than this year.

Anyway, probably best to wait until Q for a meaningful comparison.

[FoxHound]

Top speed is drag dependant, no doubt there.
But:
300 kmh is nothing for these V6 units. 315 is also not top speed on this circuit, just in this speed trap. Power and power alone is responsible for this increase in speed. There's no reason to assume ferrari is running significantly less downforce this year.
200 kmh is also pocket change. That's like 2.5s of full throttle. You're giving drag waaay too much importance here, and energy deployment waay too little..

A bit of a contradiction there.

If top speed is drag dependent, why suggest the improvement is through power alone?

[Juzh]

Top speed is drag dependant, no doubt there.
But:
300 kmh is nothing for these V6 units. 315 is also not top speed on this circuit, just in this speed trap. Power and power alone is responsible for this increase in speed. There's no reason to assume ferrari is running significantly less downforce this year.
200 kmh is also pocket change. That's like 2.5s of full throttle. You're giving drag waaay too much importance here, and energy deployment waay too little..

A bit of a contradiction there.

If top speed is drag dependent, why suggest the improvement is through power alone?

Because 315 is not top speed at all? It's just what cars manage in that given straight because it's ultimately not long enough for drag to overcome power.

[FoxHound]

But drag will have an influence from as low as 100km/h, however small.

There's also a raft of variables that have not been accounted for, especially tyres this year. There is an improvement, and most comes from the engine. But progress through Aero efficiency, rake, wing angle will all have a big say in this too.

[Juzh]

But drag will have an influence from as low as 100km/h, however small.

There's also a raft of variables that have not been accounted for, especially tyres this year. There is an improvement, and most comes from the engine. But progress through Aero efficiency, rake, wing angle will all have a big say in this too.

I'd say a major improvement comes from the engine itself and particularly ERS deployment. Last year most cars (except mercedes' own car) started to de-rate/clip some few hundred meters before the speed trap. This year things seem to have changed a bit.

[godlameroso]

Given higher pressures give less grip wouldn't it be logical to assume this year's tires are marginally slower than last year's? Also to think they're getting almost .7 seconds from the most restrictive aero regulations the sport has ever seen? More logical would be to assume improved breaking and the increase in acceleration out of corners is really where the benefit lies. 3 years of developing throttle maps, 3 years of ERS development, 3 years of learning how to control combustion via the MGU-H, 3 years of improving the power unit so it delivers maximum power over a wider range, 3 years of tuning the break by wire system. When you add all that up I think it makes a bigger difference than some wing tweaks to the most restricted aero formula F1 has ever seen. The only real way to make improvements is to basically redesign the whole chassis.

[Big Mangalhit]

2015 ferrari PU last year in qualifying managed 8 kmh less than it does in 2016 fp1 on a speed trap that's purely power related at 315 kmh. Just pointing out progress there.

I still think that top speed has more to do with drag than power. At almost 300km/h you need a lot of HP to put one more km/h and only a small decrease in drag to have the same effect. Plus most teams prefer to deploy all the power in the beginning of the straight so they put down all the energy while there is the least amount of drag and get to 200km/h in the least amount of time. Nobody wants to put max energy on the end of the straight, usually they even prefer to harvest it.

So again I think top speed has little to do with engine performance, and more about ECU profiles and drag. Otherwise you would find a good correlation between engines and their position on top speed charts. But what we see is teams with different engines being all mixed together.

Most of the times we see pilots of the same team having bigger differences between each other than with other team's cars. That just shows how the setup can have a bigger influence on Max Speed.

Top speed is drag dependant, no doubt there.
But:
300 kmh is nothing for these V6 units. 315 is also not top speed on this circuit, just in this speed trap. Power and power alone is responsible for this increase in speed. There's no reason to assume ferrari is running significantly less downforce this year.
200 kmh is also pocket change. That's like 2.5s of full throttle. You're giving drag waaay too much importance here, and energy deployment waay too little.

ALL teams prefer to deploy energy on the beginning of the straights, but it changes nothing. Last year ferrari at their best managed significantly less than this year.

Anyway, probably best to wait until Q for a meaningful comparison.

Doesn't matter if 300 is not top speed it has still much more drag than 200 especially because drag increments are squared in relation to speed.
There is also no reason to think Ferrari hasn't reduced drag this year compared to last year, we just don't know.

I don't say power has nothing to do with top speed, of course it has. Just that is counts at least a bit less than drag, and because drag has such a big influence (even if you think it is less than 50% influence per se) you can't extrapolate nothing in regards to power using top speed values and not knowing the rest of the factors.

Again proof of this concept is that top speed order is not separated by engines->teams->pilots (for instance all merc engines; then all ferrari engines; then all renault engines; then all honda's) but is somewhat scrambled.

Also remember when Ferrari had some clipping on the straight this year and not last year, yet they were faster this year? That is probably because the deployment of energy favours putting down all the beans on early straight as possible (with account for grip ofc) and harvesting in high drag where power is not the main differentiating agent.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Sincere apologies to all here, who have to go through this nonsense in a race thread.

And why is it beyond the realms of possibility exactly?

Because they are nowhere there to challenge Mercedes. Anyone with half brain understands how Mercedes is manging the gap to Ferrari. Despite Ferrari introducing multiple upgrades on PU, they haven't come any closer. What does that say?

Last year, Ferrari won three races on merit and have nearly won a couple this year. Or does it require your certificate of approval or merit of some kind?

There is a difference between winning on merit and winning while situations arising that pushes the faster cars out. Other than Malaysia 2015, the two wins that they had, has a bit of a drama behind it. Hope your memory would help there. If I had the authority to give certificate of approval, probably Ferrari wouldn't have been racing today.

If your criticism is hurled towards the 'recent' times at Ferrari, then yes, they've not won a title in 7 years, hardly a disaster or a catastrophe.

Wrong. They have won just 5 championships in the last 15 years. In a competitive world, you are as good as your last year. For a team that has infinite budget, facilities and sponsorship, it's a HUGE shame to be always chasing another team. With such facilities and resources, probably a Force India would win a championship every other year.

All we're trying to discuss is that this circuit might suit Ferrari and they could win the grand prix, which a lot of reputed publishers, journalists and people within the sport believe.

Aren't they the same reputed publishers, journalists and people within the sport, who said Ferrari is just closer to Mercedes by 0.2 Seconds?Huh. So far, the FP1 and FP2 results simply place them where they have been all year, which is hardly surprising.

You absolutely have the right to contradict it, but to say Ferrari cannot compete with Mercedes and to make a 'joke' out of people that think so makes you come across as laughable and hilarious.

Laughable and Hillarious? That is the situation of a mighty team with unimaginable resources, who have been struggling badly. Let them perform and shut me down, instead of this verbal assault from fanboys. That would be the most ideal thing that can happen.

And, by your logic, every team in the paddock should pack up because there's no point showing up. Mercedes should just race themselves and we can delete all other threads here and just speak about them? Would that suit you mate?

If not for money being dished out for SIMPLY participating, everyone else would have packed up, if they had to earn every single cent out of competition and if it was winner takes all. There are teams like back markers, who are simply happy to be there, nothing else.

A clean and honest assessment, by Horse's mouth....
VETTEL: WE DO NOT HAVE THE BEST CAR

[digitalrurouni]

For me Rosberg is going to win this weekend.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

50% Chance of rain for qualifying. That should throw up some unexpected qualifying battle.

[sosic2121]

Because they are nowhere there to challenge Mercedes. Anyone with half brain understands how Mercedes is manging the gap to Ferrari. Despite Ferrari introducing multiple upgrades on PU, they haven't come any closer. What does that say?

Do you believe mercedes is sandbagging?
I believe they are, since 2014

[GoranF1]

50% Chance of rain for qualifying. That should throw up some unexpected qualifying battle.

Alonso for pole...!

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Vettel's spin in Fp2, onboard....

http://www.formula1.com/en/video/2016/7 ... aking.html