Pirelli 2013

[marcush.]

the one thing that does not fit the claim Mercedes AMG found something to make the tyre last is the fact that according to your logic they did never ever use these tyres before Budapest.How on earth could you possibly adapt your car to a completely unknown untested product PERFECTLY when failing to adapt to known and tested product for 4 Years in a row up to that day? Where is the logic in this?
Adapatbility of the car has been there for the whole year and obviously the tyres HAVE changed recently in a dramtic enough way to not only pull Mercedes to the front but also rob some teams considerable speed ....
I could accept a coincidence as explanation ..like the Chinese GP competitiveness we have been watching and Monaco speed
We have seen Mercedes fully competitive there (with the exception of 2010 and of course the Schumacher car fragility)
One could claim they know why they are quick there but one has to admit they had no idea how to make it quick anywhere else AND let the tyre survive.
At this time Brawn is still not sure about the issues behind them -clearly a sign of :-we don´t know why we had no issues in Hungary -apart from the new tyres totally suited to the characteristic of the car for once....
He does not claim -we have cracked the tyre degradation issue now and the following races should prove this...Maybe he is hinting at Pirelli not optimising all tyre variants to W04 characteristics? If he already knows ,then it is almost clear that Mercedes will still struggle when other compounds are chosen....

[thomin]

Interesting, Pirelli saying the tires is not the cause for Mercedes win. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109211

Not sure i´d agree with that, it seems these tires are less sensitive to thermal deg, which was the Merc´s achilles heel.
But i´m no tire expert so maybe they do have found something. Maybe it´s the rubber strip we all talked about pages ago.

IMO it's still because of the Pirelli test, but not from Mercedes' side. Rather, on the Pirelli side. And no, I'm not suggesting a conspiracy.

When Pirelli tested the Hungary 2013 hybrid tyres on the Merc chassis, it could've seen, "oh whoops. These rears overheat too easily. Let's make the rears a bit more overheat-resilient."

Because the Pirelli test exposed the weaknesses of the W04+Pirelli combo, those weaknesses were the ones to be sorted out, ie - the design of the tyres has come to the design of the car. Much in the way teams have previously suggested that Pirelli designed their tyres around the 2010 Renault's suspension geometry and gave now-Lotus their everlast tyre abilities.

this was exactly my claim .Pirelli had only W04 as a reference point for their tyre to sort out the isssues they were facing .
Unfortunatelly for the competitors w04 has a very different characteristic in terms of rear tyre stress .Pirelli did the sensible and adapted the tyres to a known quantity and we arrive at a situation were the opposition has lost a considerable advantage vs Mercedes.
interestingly B-teams TR and FI seem to have suffered most...

That would sound reasonable, weren't it for the fact that Pirelli never changed the compound. All they did was to go to Kevlar in the side walls which they already did in 2012 and which became inevitable after the Silverstone debacle. They didn't construct anything new that could be based on their "secret" test results, or if they did so, they're not racing it. If there is an impact, we won't see it till 2014.

[marcush.]

I don´t get how you all take those statements of pirelli,Mercedes ,etc at face value when all of them have obviously chosen to tell the truth in homoepathic doses and only when no other way out was possible.It did not hinder them to tell contradicting or should i say opposing views in one and the same statement at all and to me it is very clear that we are told stories.
Mind you only the liars have to constantly check and evaluate what they and their partners are saying redressing their statements as you go along .
Sticking to the truth always is clearcut constant .All participants were unables or unwilling to shed light on the happenings .
Rosberg and Hamilton telling different stories to what Brawn said and Pirelli different stories to what Mercedes said and this is also different to what Fia ,whiting and who ever was involved has said.
It is mud ,deep mud here and whatever it is its highly political and meant to keep all involved in a state of don´t move tooo much as it could backfire heavily .
These are the dealings of Formula 1 since a long time and Pirelligate is one more example how the powers within formula 1 lure parties involved on shaky ground .
Interestingly the dose of instability created is always just enough to keep Formula 1 in the media ....

So how can we know FOR SURE what Pirelli did with the tyres? Is it even possible for us to judge the impact of mixing compound 2013 with carcass of 2012 and how much they had to adjust each of them and processing of the tyre manufacture and what of all these adjustments were really necessary or just introduced to adjust the tyre characteristic to W04?
Our forum tyre specialist could elaborate ,i´m sure but he won´t as it is all confidential .But don´t you think baking the front tyres two minutes longer or shorter could have a heavy impact on endurance and still you had 2012 construction and 2013 compounds? On top of this -you could read these impacts from a tyre test with pure experimental construction and compounds....so what...they would not even have to lie ...the bottom line is -Mercedes got their tyre issues solved somehow in the last weeks .....but are surprised by it ...who would think this surprise stems from a planned geometric tweak in the rear suspension ....

[turbof1]

There is of course no way of telling that pirelli only changed what it told they did, just the same we can never be sure if a team runs illegal parts or not.
However, there is no reason to assume pirelli made changed it wasn't supposed to do. We know that these structures worked last year. They reverted, as told to everybody, to the last point they knew was safe. There is no indicati they changed compounds.
I also have to add that Pirelli are bad liars. To be frankly, we would have known if they changed the compounds.

[SectorOne]

I think what people need to ask themselves is also, what´s in it for Pirelli to help Mercedes?
What could they possibly gain from them as opposed to let´s say Ferrari (Italian team) or Red Bull?
-


Edit: Also, some words from Brawn, exciting

”For Spa and Monza we have some great update packages in the works. Depending on how well things go, we will then decide what to do for the rest of the season.”
http://grandprix247.com/2013/08/10/merc ... -campaign/

For Monza it´s obvious you have another wing etc but maybe they are going for a specific SPA pack as well?
Something of a hybrid between regular and Monza pack.

(edit this was moved, hence the Merc upadte talk here....)

[dren]

I think what people need to ask themselves is also, what´s in it for Pirelli to help Mercedes?
What could they possibly gain from them as opposed to let´s say Ferrari (Italian team) or Red Bull?

And they ran tests with an older Ferrari chassis, too. So why didn't Ferrari all of a sudden not have a resurgence?

I don't always take at face value what is reported in the press, it's silly to do so. But at the same time, I think it's equally silly to think Pirelli made a tire specifically for the Mercedes chassis.

If the tires are in deed 2012 construction with 2013 compounds, they should hold no surprises to any of the teams.

[dren]

If we take the press at face value:

1. The "secret" private test was over 2014 compounds.
2. The "new" tires use 2013 compounds, every team is familiar with.
3. The "new" tires use 2012 construction, every team is familiar with.
4. Pirelli stated it was something Mercedes has done.
5. Mercedes has made numerous changes all season to better use and understand the tires.

It's not too hard to believe that Mercedes was able to dial in the tires. They had one entire season working with the 2012 tires, as did everyone else. Perhaps the big key is Mercedes now know how to set the car up for desired tire temperature ranges.

[GrandAxe]

But i don´t think that´s the complete story. Mercedes was actually on it´s way to solving the older tires.
In Silverstone they showed that they could hang with the other people even though it´s the most demanding track in terms of energy put through the tires.

Mercedes was on their way to solve their tire problems for the last three years. I think that the coincidence is simply too obvious: private test, new tires (2012 construction with 2013 compounds), and voila - Mercedes can keep a fast pace in the race (Monaco was the result of their qualifing). The spoils for taking the risk, I guess.

...Just the unimportant point that the tyres Merc tested are different to the ones now in use. The current tyres are new to every team including Merc, so their improved tyre use cannot be attributed to the test.

[marcush.]

But i don´t think that´s the complete story. Mercedes was actually on it´s way to solving the older tires.
In Silverstone they showed that they could hang with the other people even though it´s the most demanding track in terms of energy put through the tires.

Mercedes was on their way to solve their tire problems for the last three years. I think that the coincidence is simply too obvious: private test, new tires (2012 construction with 2013 compounds), and voila - Mercedes can keep a fast pace in the race (Monaco was the result of their qualifing). The spoils for taking the risk, I guess.

...Just the unimportant point that the tyres Merc tested are different to the ones now in use. The current tyres are new to every team including Merc, so their improved tyre use cannot be attributed to the test.

tyre testing is there for a reason :developing tyres .so you are most possibly right in your claim they did not test the current tyre on these days .But what really counts is the feeedback they gave ,including the drivers feedback ! It will have highlighted perfectly to Pirelli what fornt and rear tyres will need and the result of this information gathering was given to
the other teams in that silverstone test to sample .
so the improved test is clearly attributable to that test and it is the obvious reason why Mercedes did not struggle to make it work in spite of never having a chance to sample those Hungary tyres in advance...
If there was no incentive for Mercedes why would they commit such a thing and get banned from the test coming back with a commanding win... this just does not add up in any ways other than the tyres were actually optimised to W04 characteristic so MMerc could stick them onto the car and erase the trouble they experienced all those years..mind you last year they just gave up on trying to setup the car for Hungary....

[GrandAxe]

...Just the unimportant point that the tyres Merc tested are different to the ones now in use. The current tyres are new to every team including Merc, so their improved tyre use cannot be attributed to the test.

tyre testing is there for a reason :developing tyres .so you are most possibly right in your claim they did not test the current tyre on these days .But what really counts is the feeedback they gave ,including the drivers feedback ! It will have highlighted perfectly to Pirelli what fornt and rear tyres will need and the result of this information gathering was given to
the other teams in that silverstone test to sample .
so the improved test is clearly attributable to that test and it is the obvious reason why Mercedes did not struggle to make it work in spite of never having a chance to sample those Hungary tyres in advance...
If there was no incentive for Mercedes why would they commit such a thing and get banned from the test coming back with a commanding win... this just does not add up in any ways other than the tyres were actually optimised to W04 characteristic so MMerc could stick them onto the car and erase the trouble they experienced all those years..mind you last year they just gave up on trying to setup the car for Hungary....

Since the tyres were different, the wind tunnel and pneumatic models of the tyre would be different also. In which case any data or feedback gathered by Mercedes in the test would be worthless and deliberate gains would be impossible.

The only plausible argument is that Pirelli has based the new design around projections based on the data gathered from the W04 tyre test; that would make the tyres fit the Merc like a glove - an incidental gain.

If that's the case, then Ferrari and Red Bull must be in real agony over their short-sighted decision not to take part in the Barcelona test, because they were scared of espionage; perhaps, the new tyres would have been based on Ferrari or Red Bull characteristics instead. Espionage paranoia is the ridiculous aspect of the story that's not getting told.
Its a fitting lesson for F1 about when to let down the paranoid barricades against espionage and gain a technological leap. Maybe its best for F1 to embrace the patent system, so the teams can let down their guard for the benefit of F1's overall technological growth; its just tyres today, it could be something else (that's equally of collective benefit) tomorrow.

[thomin]

I don´t get how you all take those statements of pirelli,Mercedes ,etc at face value when all of them have obviously chosen to tell the truth in homoepathic doses and only when no other way out was possible.It did not hinder them to tell contradicting or should i say opposing views in one and the same statement at all and to me it is very clear that we are told stories.
Mind you only the liars have to constantly check and evaluate what they and their partners are saying redressing their statements as you go along .
Sticking to the truth always is clearcut constant .All participants were unables or unwilling to shed light on the happenings .
Rosberg and Hamilton telling different stories to what Brawn said and Pirelli different stories to what Mercedes said and this is also different to what Fia ,whiting and who ever was involved has said.
It is mud ,deep mud here and whatever it is its highly political and meant to keep all involved in a state of don´t move tooo much as it could backfire heavily .
These are the dealings of Formula 1 since a long time and Pirelligate is one more example how the powers within formula 1 lure parties involved on shaky ground .
Interestingly the dose of instability created is always just enough to keep Formula 1 in the media ....

So how can we know FOR SURE what Pirelli did with the tyres? Is it even possible for us to judge the impact of mixing compound 2013 with carcass of 2012 and how much they had to adjust each of them and processing of the tyre manufacture and what of all these adjustments were really necessary or just introduced to adjust the tyre characteristic to W04?
Our forum tyre specialist could elaborate ,i´m sure but he won´t as it is all confidential .But don´t you think baking the front tyres two minutes longer or shorter could have a heavy impact on endurance and still you had 2012 construction and 2013 compounds? On top of this -you could read these impacts from a tyre test with pure experimental construction and compounds....so what...they would not even have to lie ...the bottom line is -Mercedes got their tyre issues solved somehow in the last weeks .....but are surprised by it ...who would think this surprise stems from a planned geometric tweak in the rear suspension ....

1) I'm not aware of any significantly contradicting stories regarding the "secret" tire test. From all the various press releases, interviews, statements and not least the court case I think the picture we have is rather straight forward.

2) If the compounds on the new tires were different, you can be sure that someone would notice it, eg someone who might feel disadvantaged by them and has not only the means to find out but also enough cloud with the FIA to raise hell if necessary, you know, someone like Ferrari for example. We on this forum can't know for sure of course, but we can be very confident that the teams would and since Pirelli can't change compounds this year without everybody agreeing to it, I think it's save to say they didn't.

3) There is of course one motive why Pirelli would aid Mercedes and this one goes to all the conspiracy theorists out there: Unlike Red Bull, Mercedes has a large automobile business, so they could use that as bargaining chip and potentially allude to switching one of their lines to Pirelli tires if the F1 tires work out for them. Then again, so can Ferrari/FIAT or even Renault despite not having a works team anymore and their volumes are even larger than Mercedes'.

[marcush.]

the parties offering contradicting truths -example:

http://en.espnf1.com/mercedes/motorspor ... 09812.html

Pirellis motivation?
Pirelli already had it´s contracts sorted with the teams but was in serious trouble concerning the go coming from FIA being appointed as the supplier for the coming years.
The situation seemed to be supported by FIA (Spannerman having no obligations) and Pirelli simply thought it was the will of FIA to have a test with Mercedes only....for what ? to equalise the playing field ...for that matter .
Pirelli came home with a set of data and feedback coming from Nico,Lewis and W04 and this is what they had as data to come up with a new tyre for Hungary and the rest of the season .
It´s not like anyone had to tell them what to do .They know how to make Pirelli tyres the development direction has changed
simply because instead of a Renault they used a W04 as test hack.I don´t see what is the issue here ..it´s just simple facts.
Pirelli needed to come up with something after silverstone GP .it seems more than reasonable they used the data generated
at a tyre test under Pirellis lead....given they had no better data to rely on as teams do adapt their cars constantly through a race weekend it is very hard to draw many conclusion from race weekends methinks.

[FoxHound]

Sigh....

I'm tiring of reading about this subject already and the umpteen different takes on it. Surely any level headed fellow will realise Lotus and Renault powered teams had an adavantage, due to Pirelli using their test mule for a few years.
The conspiracy theorists can think what they like and all, but to use Pirelli media against itself as some form of evidence to suggest wrongdoing or favouritism is just wrong.

Rosberg knew what he was testing. Great.
Why would Pirelli not tell him? If you are pushing the tyres to a delta, you have to know which tyres you are on.
What's the point of testing if the driver has to spend 5/6 laps guessing what tyres he's on or what the objective is for the test?

Pointless right?
Maybe some people have a different idea of what testing a tyre entails.

[marcush.]

If we take the press at face value:

1. The "secret" private test was over 2014 compounds.
2. The "new" tires use 2013 compounds, every team is familiar with.
3. The "new" tires use 2012 construction, every team is familiar with.
4. Pirelli stated it was something Mercedes has done.
5. Mercedes has made numerous changes all season to better use and understand the tires.

It's not too hard to believe that Mercedes was able to dial in the tires. They had one entire season working with the 2012 tires, as did everyone else. Perhaps the big key is Mercedes now know how to set the car up for desired tire temperature ranges.

As they have been able to 3or 4 times in recent years....after putting all effort into it ...they have now so much knowledge they can dial in a completely unknown tyre better than the ones they know since the beginning of the year....brilliant logic
applied there.

I can accept a lucky hit in Hungary but to assign this win and performance towards anyting else than driver brilliance paired with a tyre that for whatever unknown reason fits track ,conditions and car seems completely impossible to me.
Spa will tell the w´hole story .
Does anyone know which tyre compounds are planned for the rest of the season?


as far as my idea of objectives at that Barcelona test it was Pirelli gathering data from competitive drivers piloting around Barcelona with a contemporary 2013 car ,as nothing 2014 spec was available.
during a tyre test ,the car will NOT be changed or adapted .you run what you brung ,basically .the Tyre manufacturer does
collect data for each and every run at nearly constant boundary conditions to be able to gauge the different sets of tyres against each other.
So the test hack and the drivers conducting the test have a very prominent influence on the test results as a fixed parameter
That´s why it was so important in all the years to be the team labeled development partner to the tyre manufacturer (Ferrari forGoodyear then Bridgestone and Renault for Michelin .All the other teams had to make do with tyres less than ideal for their chassis and it showed -especially when it came to tyre endurance.

[skoop]

according to AMuS tire dimensions won't change 2014