Pirelli 2013

[raymondu999]

Well here are some comments from Hamilton after the Indian GP:

I can't remember when I was last so on the limit almost to the point of going off. We've not been able to do that for a while because we've had to look after the tyres. But this was flat-out the whole way. I loved it.

I for one am loving that they're going flat out again, even though the race was slightly overtake-anemic. Mind you, some people would probably disagree with me.

[ubrben]

Basically the good racing was due to crap tyres, and as soon as the tyres last, the racing's mediocre. At that point it also becomes clear how contrived DRS is.

Ben

[raymondu999]

It (IMO) is personal preference. Some will prefer the overtaking, some will prefer the push-push racing. I personally prefer the latter, even if it means 0 overtakes. But again, that's just personal preference.

[mzivtins]

These tyres do nothing to improve overtaking.

Hungary this year was stupid, no one could overtake.

It decreases passing IMO, kimi on vettel, he had one shot, and then the tyres were gone, BORING.

Creating passes in the pits by increasing the number of pit stops is utterly pathetic and artificial, and people think DRS is bad?

Being able to push more consistently on the tyres would lessen the effect of coming out of the pits into traffic, or sitting behing someone who has not yet pitted. We have seen so many races this year where the tyres are ruined from having to tail a slower car.
This then has the knock on effect that being out in the lead with all that air is the best position for tyre deg and grip! Which makes the race utterly boring!!!! I love jensons victory at SPA, even he said "That was great, we didnt see a car for the whole race haha!"
And we didn't see him. no camera was on him because how boring?

I can't say anything good about pirelli and the current tyres. So i will shut it before i start bellowing out with race by race examples of tyre forced positions etc... we have all seen it, we just have to put up with it

[Jersey Tom]

These tyres do nothing to improve overtaking.

[...]

It decreases passing IMO, kimi on vettel, he had one shot, and then the tyres were gone, BORING.

I share this opinion. I would want tires that have some ability to recover so a driver can get after someone and attack... rather than having one go of it and then the whole stint being junk.

[olefud]

[Ultimately how much heat the tire generates through the tread mainly comes down to (a) [to my point] how much tread rubber you have, (b) its loss rate, (c) [to Ben's point] how much strain you're imposing, (d) the cyclical rate [effectively the car speed].

Are (a) and (c) somewhat redundant, or am I missing something?

[Jersey Tom]

[Ultimately how much heat the tire generates through the tread mainly comes down to (a) [to my point] how much tread rubber you have, (b) its loss rate, (c) [to Ben's point] how much strain you're imposing, (d) the cyclical rate [effectively the car speed].

Are (a) and (c) somewhat redundant, or am I missing something?

One is a design feature, one is a variable of usage states. A measure of volume or mass, versus a measure of strain or deflection.

You can have the same tire on a car and get different strain / heat / work / whatever out of it just by putting a different driver in the car.

[olefud]

[Ultimately how much heat the tire generates through the tread mainly comes down to (a) [to my point] how much tread rubber you have, (b) its loss rate, (c) [to Ben's point] how much strain you're imposing, (d) the cyclical rate [effectively the car speed].

Are (a) and (c) somewhat redundant, or am I missing something?

One is a design feature, one is a variable of usage states. A measure of volume or mass, versus a measure of strain or deflection.

You can have the same tire on a car and get different strain / heat / work / whatever out of it just by putting a different driver in the car.

Ok, I get the point. I was thinking that more tread rubber would produce more cumulative strain (squiggle) within the tire system, other inputs being equal, but certainly differing operating conditions could also do so.

[godlameroso]

You know what would be interesting, I know it's probably not possible to achieve but what if they designed a tire that forced you to push, pushing this hypothetical tyre would force you to end up with on average two pitstops. The flip side would be if you don't push, the tire starts getting harder until finally you have no grip, and no amount of pushing is going to fix it. It would discourage drivers from daisy footing it to preserve tires. It would give incentive to drivers to push and be aggressive, and I imagine that a tire that encourages you to push would also be tough enough to withstand some abuse, ie passing attempts.

[skgoa]

If I understand it correctly, that would mean a tyre that has it's operating window (in terms of tyre temperature) so high and is so difficult to get heat into, that you have to be very aggressive to switch it on. I don't know whether that wouldn't result in the teams just changing suspension geometry, though.

[Cam]

It (IMO) is personal preference. Some will prefer the overtaking, some will prefer the push-push racing. I personally prefer the latter, even if it means 0 overtakes. But again, that's just personal preference.

What Abu Dhabi showed us, was that a race can be spectacular, without the need for spicey tyres. I hope Pirelli, FOM and the FIA consider this for 2013 and beyond. I'm just now starting to like the tyres simply as random winners do not happen, pushing all the way is back and the tyres seem to be stable with most teams at peace with them. At this rate, I might even start to like Pirelli as a brand .

[Jersey Tom]

You know what would be interesting, I know it's probably not possible to achieve but what if they designed a tire that forced you to push

This is how the tires already are, with the drivers going on about getting heat into them.

Then you push them and they crumble like bleu cheese.

But that's good racing I guess?

[raymondu999]

It (IMO) is personal preference. Some will prefer the overtaking, some will prefer the push-push racing. I personally prefer the latter, even if it means 0 overtakes. But again, that's just personal preference.

What Abu Dhabi showed us, was that a race can be spectacular, without the need for spicey tyres. I hope Pirelli, FOM and the FIA consider this for 2013 and beyond. I'm just now starting to like the tyres simply as random winners do not happen, pushing all the way is back and the tyres seem to be stable with most teams at peace with them. At this rate, I might even start to like Pirelli as a brand .

I never thought I'd see the day...

This is how the tires already are, with the drivers going on about getting heat into them.

Then you push them and they crumble like bleu cheese.

But that's good racing I guess?

To be fair JT, I think godlameroso is proposing even harder tyres, where you have to be driving between 98-100% to actually get the tyres working at all.

[ubrben]

It (IMO) is personal preference. Some will prefer the overtaking, some will prefer the push-push racing. I personally prefer the latter, even if it means 0 overtakes. But again, that's just personal preference.

What Abu Dhabi showed us, was that a race can be spectacular, without the need for spicey tyres. I hope Pirelli, FOM and the FIA consider this for 2013 and beyond. I'm just now starting to like the tyres simply as random winners do not happen, pushing all the way is back and the tyres seem to be stable with most teams at peace with them. At this rate, I might even start to like Pirelli as a brand .

I never thought I'd see the day...

This is how the tires already are, with the drivers going on about getting heat into them.

Then you push them and they crumble like bleu cheese.

But that's good racing I guess?

To be fair JT, I think godlameroso is proposing even harder tyres, where you have to be driving between 98-100% to actually get the tyres working at all.

Problem there is that if you have a much harder tyre, the driver might not have enough confidence in the car to push in the first place.

This is where you have to cut through the PR BS and actually define whether the product is technically better. If you have a tyre that comes in quickly and doesn't degrade, e.g. Bridgestone then it is just a better tyre. The Pirelli for a given grip level comes in slower and then degrades faster. I suspect they have a high TG compound that's very hard close to ambient temp and then softens a lot when it gets hot, but also loses a lot of shear strength as it softens. Maintaining that shear strength as the tyre softens is where the chemists earn their money, you either have the materials and the know-how, or you don't.

Ben

[raymondu999]

Ben, I bow to you and JT on technical matters of the tyre.

But what I meant - and godlameroso - is that the tyre forced you to push, because if you were to drive at less than flat-out, the tyres would cool too much.