Pirelli 2013

[muhammadtalha-13]

Deleted

[wesley123]

And "Jonnycraig" downvoted me. it's no problem but i was just replying to what Paul Humbrey said, not to your post specifically.

I find that quite surprising how he would be able to do that, since he cant even downvote.

[ecapox]

But we did not ask Pirelli to go over the top as they did. In fact I have criticized the Pirelli tyres as too soft forever. Even the first batch in 2011 wasn't right in my view. Too many marbles and we simply don't need the over kill of soft tyres and DRS as it is. We do not even get decent balls out qualifying because you can win races from the third row regularly.

These regular failures we have now with the new steel band under the carcasse are ridiculous. I'm sure Pirelly will fix those problems soon enough but i'm equally sure they will not rectify the main concerns that the tyres are too soft. They profit from all this tyre talk. The more teams complain that all we see is tyre management the more Pirelli are confirmed in their views to run a strategy of super fragile tyres that gets tons of exposure in the press.

It is difficult to develop 4 tire compounds that work excatly the same on 20 different tract surfaces. Some tracks will go well on the tires and some will be very hard on the tires. That's the reality.

The marbles are just a product of a softer tire. The rubber doesnt "disappear" it has to go somewhere. Some gets into the track and "rubbers in" while the rest just gets spit out as a marble. The track can only hold so much rubber.

Lets not get too ahead of ourselves. Winning from the third row is NOT common. I'd even more specifically pinpoint Ferrari and Alonso. His starts are amazing and his overtaking on the outside of turn three in Barcelona was excellent. Are we now requesting that the driver who gets pole or spot 2, now win the race?

Point is some cars are very hard on their tires. This allows them to get heat into their tires quickly for a great 1 lap in qualifying but chew apart when it comes to the race. That's part of the game. If you have a great team, you would have prepared for this. If you have a good team, you will adapt throughout the season. If you have a pedestrian team, you will have problems all season. That's F1.

EDIT***
You are right about the delaminations. That is ridiculous and needs to be fixed immediataely.

[turbof1]

Not withstanding the fact it is difficult to produce well performing tyres, we should not forget the 2 previous tyre manufacturers, bridgestone and michelin, succeeded in producing tyres fit for all circuits (except michelin for indianapolis). And they did not produce marbles. The only problem you sometimes had was that the tyres grained slightly. Nobody is perfect. But compared to those 2, pirelli is doing sloppy work.

[bhall]

So what if RedBull wins? They have every right to win because they have developed a very fast car. AND i am not aRedBull fan i hate Vettel. When it comes to shitty tyres, people say it's the same for every body, teams should build their cars accordingly etc etc. I mean WTF? What is wrong with hard tyres? its also the same for everybody. it's a team's fault if their car is slower than RedBull. If u don't want RedBull to win run away with championship, why just destroy the whole sport we love? Why don't just develop your cars better?

it's like " hey, MESSI is so good, so his 2 goals against a Low level team will be counted as 1"

That's nonsense. No team has a right to win anything for any reason. Victories are earned, and they're earned through preparation and execution.

Red Bull went into the offseason with the same data about the tires as every other team. They went into the Winter tests with the same data and with the same opportunities to collect more. With that data, they've produced a car that, for whatever reason, cannot make best use of the tires. Ergo, they've not produced the best car. Instead, they've evidently produced a car with unreachable potential under current conditions, and for such a mistake they have no one to blame but themselves.

It's like designing the fastest aircraft in the world and forgetting that it has to actually get off the ground.

To me, Hembery's comments look like nothing more than an admission that his company's tires are still the same shitty rubber they've always been, and that this sudden uproar, despite two-plus years of sustained tire shittiness, seems to be related to a certain team no longer having the advantage it previously enjoyed. And he might just be right about that.

[Richard]

I agree that Pirelli seem to have quality issues this year with the delamination incidents. We don’t know if that is due to quality or an unfortunate cluster. While correlation is not causation when it comes to engineering, correlation does destroy public confidence.

As for this weekend, I prefer races when drivers are on different strategies. It makes the racing more complex, we see guile triumph over brawn.

We mustn’t lose sight of the principle that F1 is at its best when strategy has a role alongside car speed and driver skill. This means the winning car is rarely the fastest. The winner will usually be under fuelled and the driver/team combination will have the best balance of avoiding risk, taking advantage of opportunities, and managing resources (a car with too many resources is slow).

Spain 1986 is a good example, Senna nursing worn tyres in fuel saving mode being hounded by Mansell with fresh tyres thanks to an extra pit stop. Same too for Fangio in Germany 1956, supposedly the best race ever. The memorable events of those great races were due to cars running different tyre and fuel strategies. In my mind that has to be a good thing because it opens up possibilities, anything else is procession.

It’s what we saw at Barcelona this weekend, but it needs to be more subtle than the current arrangements. That’s the crux of the problem in F1 at the moment – it’s not subtle.

[muhammadtalha-13]

I agree that Pirelli seem to have quality issues this year with the delamination incidents. We don’t know if that is due to quality or an unfortunate cluster. While correlation is not causation when it comes to engineering, correlation does destroy public confidence.

As for this weekend, I prefer races when drivers are on different strategies. It makes the racing more complex, we see guile triumph over brawn.

We mustn’t lose sight of the principle that F1 is at its best when strategy has a role alongside car speed and driver skill. This means the winning car is rarely the fastest. The winner will usually be under fuelled and the driver/team combination will have the best balance of avoiding risk, taking advantage of opportunities, and managing resources (a car with too many resources is slow).

Spain 1986 is a good example, Senna nursing worn tyres in fuel saving mode being hounded by Mansell with fresh tyres thanks to an extra pit stop. Same too for Fangio in Germany 1956, supposedly the best race ever. The memorable events of those great races were due to cars running different tyre and fuel strategies. In my mind that has to be a good thing because it opens up possibilities, anything else is procession.

It’s what we saw at Barcelona this weekend, but it needs to be more subtle than the current arrangements. That’s the crux of the problem in F1 at the moment – it’s not subtle.

I agree... BUT Senna was nursing those tyres because he wanted to do that. Now a days, even 4 stoppers are being told not to defend, hold back etc. Yesterday in 2nd stint, when both Alonso and Vettel passed Rosberg, Vettel was told by his engineer not to chase Alonso. This is just not good.

[ecapox]

Not withstanding the fact it is difficult to produce well performing tyres, we should not forget the 2 previous tyre manufacturers, bridgestone and michelin, succeeded in producing tyres fit for all circuits (except michelin for indianapolis). And they did not produce marbles. The only problem you sometimes had was that the tyres grained slightly. Nobody is perfect. But compared to those 2, pirelli is doing sloppy work.

Your examples are attributed 100% to the fact that the tires produced by Michelin and Bridgestone were a lot harder compounds than what Pirelli are providing today. Soft tires produce more marbles. Soft tires react worse/quicker to differing track compounds.

Calling their work sloppy is unfair and unsubstantiated.

[timbo]

I agree that Pirelli seem to have quality issues this year with the delamination incidents.

Not necessarily it's only Pirelli's at fault here. When RBR pioneered current exhast config, the actual exhausts and plumes were near the edges of the floor now we have exhaust more forward and more flow can escape and reach the tyres.

[Jonnycraig]

Red Bull went into the offseason with the same data about the tires as every other team. They went into the Winter tests with the same data and with the same opportunities to collect more. With that data, they've produced a car that, for whatever reason, cannot make best use of the tires. Ergo, they've not produced the best car. Instead, they've evidently produced a car with unreachable potential under current conditions, and for such a mistake they have no one to blame but themselves.

Red Bull went into the winter break with a car that was very good on its tyres. Infact the softer the tyre they better they were.

Yet with an evolution of the same car, they are suddenly praying for harder tyres.

What has radically changed in the offseason? The construction of the tyres.

[timbo]

Red Bull went into the offseason with the same data about the tires as every other team. They went into the Winter tests with the same data and with the same opportunities to collect more. With that data, they've produced a car that, for whatever reason, cannot make best use of the tires. Ergo, they've not produced the best car. Instead, they've evidently produced a car with unreachable potential under current conditions, and for such a mistake they have no one to blame but themselves.

Red Bull went into the winter break with a car that was very good on its tyres. Infact the softer the tyre they better they were.

Yet with an evolution of the same car, they are suddenly praying for harder tyres.

What has radically changed in the offseason? The construction of the tyres.

So it's not RedBull's job to get on top of that? Maybe Ferrari should get back 2004's tyres at 2005 season?

[Jonnycraig]

Red Bull went into the offseason with the same data about the tires as every other team. They went into the Winter tests with the same data and with the same opportunities to collect more. With that data, they've produced a car that, for whatever reason, cannot make best use of the tires. Ergo, they've not produced the best car. Instead, they've evidently produced a car with unreachable potential under current conditions, and for such a mistake they have no one to blame but themselves.

Red Bull went into the winter break with a car that was very good on its tyres. Infact the softer the tyre they better they were.

Yet with an evolution of the same car, they are suddenly praying for harder tyres.

What has radically changed in the offseason? The construction of the tyres.

So it's not RedBull's job to get on top of that? Maybe Ferrari should get back 2004's tyres at 2005 season?

Red Bull are on top of it, they just cruise around as does everybody else. In some races they can cruise faster than the others, at other races teams can cruise faster than them.

The underlying theme is that there is no racing, merely finding a speed you can consistently cruise at to save tyre life. Should you come across traffic on your Sunday afternoon cruise, don't do anything silly like try and overtake them and take life from the tyre unless they open the door for you.

As Hembery says, this could all go away and we could have races rather than drives, but then Red Bull would win. And 'we' don't want that.

The unspoken truth is that with the current situation, Alonso should be sitting on 125 points. That is seen as less of a travesty though than Vettel on 125 points. We don't mind processional domination, just as long as its Ferrari rather than those toerag upstarts at Red Bull.

[timbo]

The unspoken truth is that with the current situation, Alonso should be sitting on 125 points. That is seen as less of a travesty though than Vettel on 125 points. We don't mind processional domination, just as long as its Ferrari rather than those toerag upstarts at Red Bull.

How you get that is beyond my comprehension.

[Phil]

This is actually a reply to a quote from the Barcelona thread, but given that this is the Pirelli 2013 topic, I thought I'd post it in here.

Read it please and say your opinion, i agree with this guy!
http://willthef1journo.wordpress.com/20 ... e-changer/

I agree too. It's not all about aero. Maximizing with what you have been given.
If I was Ferrari I would be walking by Adrian Newey and yelling "what's up with pull rod now!"

I actually stopped reading after the sentance "the job of a Formula 1 team is to design a car around the variables which are unchangeable.".

It's clearly not unchangeable. The problem is that because the tyres are so sensitive and have a narrow operating window, the 'perfect balance' for the tyres varies per car, per circuit and per weather condition.

How do you make your car work, when there are multiple compounds and those multiple compounds are changed as well (as was the case this weekend with the new 'hard')? The more successfull teams have a car that is inherently good on their tyres - with them, it's to a large degree in the drivers hands to 'work the tyres' in the right way. There are other teams however who might have a good car, but doesn't work with the narrow operating window of the tyres.

Also, the teams only got to work with the tyres when testing started pre season. At that point, the design choices for the cars were all made already. If you have a car that is inherently bad on these tyres, there's only so much you can change. That to me is a bit like if you are supposed to design your car without knowing on what tracks you'll be driving. Some may have 'lucked' better into getting the car right for most circuits but those that did not, well, they are basically in trouble for most of the year, unless the updates they make can change that.

If it's all in the drivers hands to make the tyres work or not, then fair enough, it'd be a level playing field. My main concern is that some drivers have an inherent bad car and no matter how they drive, they can not overcome the limiting factor of the tyres. While this may be similar to driving on a track your car is not suited to, at least, the tracks are a known quantity before the season. The tyres, which are essential to the direct performance on a weekend, introduce too many unknown factors to effectively plan your car around it. If the tyres had been the same from last year to this, then at least one would have the argument that they had a year worth of testing on every single track. But they changed it again.

This to me, is not far off of having artificial rain on some circuits to a random point in the race. Sure, it enhances the spectacle for those not interested in genuine racing... but is that really what the sport in becoming?


EDIT: Corrected mis-quote.

[VIZSLA]

Just to set things straight. That was not my quote.