Final 2010 Entry List & 2011 Tender

[sticky667]

the simple solution is

"Manufacturer" must design and build their own car. (this is a manufacturer right?)

Auto manufacturers are only allowed to supply engines and must be an open tender for all entries, no shareholding allowed. N/A or TURBO ALLOWED

Transmissions need an open tender from auto or specialized companies. Xtrac etc.

Standard ECU to remain.

Open aero regs.


With the car companies only allowed to supply engines, the money they once inflated the sport with will disappear. (as has already happened) Doesn't matter what the engine/aero regs are, the amount of money is limited to the available sponsorship. that will free up the ingenuity that has been suffocated from the sport in recent years. testing/wind tunnel time etc...is all about how much money you have to burn, if you only rely on sponsorship you need to budget accordingly.

[Giblet]

I'd hire 6 prostitutes to beat me around a bit.

[WhiteBlue]

The previous years no new teams were admitted and you have to go back to the unsuccessfull Super Aguri attempt to see what was wrong.

I would not call Super Aguri unsuccessfull. They scored points and where better than Honda on their second year. And that success was their main problem. It made Honda cash go away and they could not find sponsors, even inside Japan.

I have probably not expressed myself right. I immensely admire Aguri Suzuki for what he did with his team. In terms of a new entrant to F1 they unfortunately went under very quickly due to lack of sponsorship to meet the minimum cost of competing. From a sporting point of view they were very good but commercially they failed due to the framework being tweaked totally against new teams.

When people talk about the successes or failures of the 2010 admission you also have to consider that the new team chances have vastly improved compared to 2007 or 2008 due to the progress the FiA made with the framework conditions. I find those framework conditions much more important than the individual little bumps that occurred in the team structure.

[Dukeage]

The rules are certainly far more condusive to new teams now. The FIA ought to try to get it to thirteen, and keep it there.

[WhiteBlue]

Massa criticises new teams

I hope they won't be a danger. There are six/seven teams one second apart while those teams are four seconds behind. It's not good for the sport and not good for them: it's like two different series. They'll suffer. And we'll suffer too, when we have them in front of us during qualifying.

Massa is doing the horse wisperer's work here. I thought he was a reasonable chap. But this whinging will only reduce his reputation as a driver. It has always been perfectly normal to have teams several seconds behind the top teams. That is not a safety risk. An F1 driver must cope with such conditions or he is not fit foe the job. Long ago the 107% rule has been fixed and that is the legal criterium for slow teams.

[axle]

Massa criticises new teams

I hope they won't be a danger. There are six/seven teams one second apart while those teams are four seconds behind. It's not good for the sport and not good for them: it's like two different series. They'll suffer. And we'll suffer too, when we have them in front of us during qualifying.

Massa is doing the horse wisperer's work here. I thought he was a reasonable chap. But this whinging will only reduce his reputation as a driver. It has always been perfectly normal to have teams several seconds behind the top teams. That is not a safety risk. An F1 driver must cope with such conditions or he is not fit foe the job. Long ago the 107% rule has been fixed and that is the legal criterium for slow teams.

I too think that, that was Massa just towing the party line however if I was him I'd have shut up. It's a rediculous statement to make. No new teams ever...they are dangerous!!! yeah whatever..

[ISLAMATRON]

Massa criticises new teams

I hope they won't be a danger. There are six/seven teams one second apart while those teams are four seconds behind. It's not good for the sport and not good for them: it's like two different series. They'll suffer. And we'll suffer too, when we have them in front of us during qualifying.

Massa is doing the horse wisperer's work here. I thought he was a reasonable chap. But this whinging will only reduce his reputation as a driver. It has always been perfectly normal to have teams several seconds behind the top teams. That is not a safety risk. An F1 driver must cope with such conditions or he is not fit foe the job. Long ago the 107% rule has been fixed and that is the legal criterium for slow teams.

Wiki: In his rookie year in Formula 1, Massa was paired with 1999 International Formula 3000 champion Nick Heidfeld. He proved he was a competitive driver, but made several mistakes, including spinning off the track several times. Nevertheless, Massa scored 4 championship points in his first season, his best result a 5th place at the Spanish Grand Prix at the Circuit de Catalunya. He suffered a one race suspension late in the season, forcing him to miss the United States Grand Prix. Heinz-Harald Frentzen, Sauber's former driver drove for Massa in his place. Massa returned to the driver's seat for the Japanese Grand Prix, but Sauber confirmed that Frentzen would partner Heidfeld in 2003, leaving Massa without a race seat

Hey Bulk, maybe they should ban rookie drivers too

[andartop]

If I were in his shoes and was indeed so concerned about this, I would have at least waited until the first couple of races, as at the moment, no one really knows how fast or slow these new teams and drivers may be.

If they are indeed 4 secs off the pace, with so many cars on the grid and all of the top teams within the same second, they may indeed prove dangerous, or frustrating to say the least. I'm not sure I enjoy a good driver giving it 110% for the first half of the race to gain a 10 sec advantage only to watch that disappear as he struggles to lap 4 underdogs who won't give way..

Ferrari and Massa, however, should be the last ones to complain about this after the memorable performances of Badoer and Fisico last year (regardless of the reasons they did so bad)!!!

[roost89]

If I were in his shoes and was indeed so concerned about this, I would have at least waited until the first couple of races, as at the moment, no one really knows how fast or slow these new teams and drivers may be.

If they are indeed 4 secs off the pace, with so many cars on the grid and all of the top teams within the same second, they may indeed prove dangerous, or frustrating to say the least. I'm not sure I enjoy a good driver giving it 110% for the first half of the race to gain a 10 sec advantage only to watch that disappear as he struggles to lap 4 underdogs who won't give way..

Ferrari and Massa, however, should be the last ones to complain about this after the memorable performances of Badoer and Fisico last year (regardless of the reasons they did so bad)!!!

I remember (hopefully correctly) the speed difference between 2 cars to iniciate an overtake was 2 seconds. So if the slow driver is 4s slower and the driver can't get past, the attacking driver obviously can't overtake.
If they're 4 seconds off the pace, you'll have alot of laps to catch them in the first place and then with blue-flags, you're gonna get let past. S'easy. Also I'd imagine that the teams will play some sort of tactic that allows them to overtake the slower car in the pits if needed.

Even more off-topic: Why is Massa called "The Bulk"?

On topic:
I'd like to see more cars entering next year. Preferably a team that can actually make it on time.

[WhiteBlue]

Even more off-topic: Why is Massa called "The Bulk"?

In winter testing one of the live timing pages was dutch. We used google to translate the info to English. Massa was always translated with Bulk. Some of the observers liked the name.

[roost89]

Even more off-topic: Why is Massa called "The Bulk"?

In winter testing one of the live timing pages was dutch. We used google to translate the info to English. Massa was always translated with Bulk. Some of the observers liked the name.

Ahh, I never noticed that haha. It's great.

[Ciro Pabón]

I'd hire 6 prostitutes to beat me around a bit.

I think this year they could find only three, but one is Virgin. Give them some time: we have to have confidence in our beloved leaders. Next year they could find more.

[Pup]

The 2010 selection was very successfull getting three new teams on board and an independent engine supplier who is likely to stay when the manufacturers are pulling out left right and center... Considering we are in a massive recession the achievements of the 2010 selection look very impressive.

Huh? What exactly has been achieved? All they've done is sign up some teams; and the primary, if not sole reason we had teams applying was because FOM went from charging them obscene amounts of money to paying them to join.

So your threshold for "impressive achievement" is apparently their willingness to drop the bar and then file some paperwork.

When people talk about the successes or failures of the 2010 admission you also have to consider that the new team chances have vastly improved compared to 2007 or 2008 due to the progress the FiA made with the framework conditions. I find those framework conditions much more important than the individual little bumps that occurred in the team structure.

We know nothing of these teams' chances. We don't even know yet if Campos will make the first race. Look, if at the end of the season, these teams have been shown to be competitive, then sure, we can start handing out medals. Of course, please note that if you're going to give the FIA premature credit for creating this "framework", then you won't at the end of the year be allowed to blame FOTA if these teams remain 4-6 seconds off the pace.

The 2010 selection was very successfull getting three new teams on board and an independent engine supplier who is likely to stay when the manufacturers are pulling out left right and center.

I had to quote this again since it's so funny. You do remember that it was Mosley who almost destroyed Cosworth a few years back with his engine frieze, don't you - when they pulled out of the sport entirely and laid off hundreds of workers just before the Christmas holidays?

I still can't see how people accepted Mosley's continued attempts to replace 6 engine suppliers with 1 under the guise of 'stability'. That was always about power.

[WhiteBlue]

Nothing you write Pup is so boldly wrong as the role you describe of the FiA in the Cosworth debacle 2006. The problem was that too many manufacturer teams and satellite teams were in F1 and too few independent teams at all. This did not allow Cosworth to find enough customers which hampered their sales, cash flow, reliability and performance developments in the years before. The engine freeze had practically no impact. It meant that employees had to go a bit earlier but it did not impact on the main market conditions that made Cosworth uncompetitive. With Ferrari, Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Renault and Honda the manufacturers were allowed to have 12 or respective 18 teams with manufacturer engines but even with Super Aguri there were only 11 teams.

The FiA attempted to make engines more compatible which eventually helped Brawn to use the Merc emgine in a Honda designed car, but for Cosworth it was much too late. The return of Cosworth is also 100% due to the initiative of the FiA. Without the junctim of the 2010 new team entry and a Cosworth contract it would have never been achieved, because in open market conditions Cosworth would not have been viable against manufacturers who could offer benefits in chassis design and other support to customers. With just Williams as customer Cosworth had not managed a come back. Only the FiA tweaking the entry conditions made the difference between bust and viable. The stability it brings to the series completely justifies the action.

[Just_a_fan]

Nothing you write Pup is so boldly wrong as the role you describe of the FiA in the Cosworth debacle 2006. The problem was that too many manufacturer teams and satellite teams were in F1 and too few independent teams at all. This did not allow Cosworth to find enough customers which hampered their sales, cash flow, reliability and performance developments in the years before. The engine freeze had practically no impact. It meant that employees had to go a bit earlier but it did not impact on the main market conditions that made Cosworth uncompetitive. With Ferrari, Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Renault and Honda the manufacturers were allowed to have 12 or respective 18 teams with manufacturer engines but even with Super Aguri there were only 11 teams.

The FiA attempted to make engines more compatible which eventually helped Brawn to use the Merc emgine in a Honda designed car, but for Cosworth it was much too late. The return of Cosworth is also 100% due to the initiative of the FiA. Without the junctim of the 2010 new team entry and a Cosworth contract it would have never been achieved, because in open market conditions Cosworth would not have been viable against manufacturers who could offer benefits in chassis design and other support to customers. With just Williams as customer Cosworth had not managed a come back. Only the FiA tweaking the entry conditions made the difference between bust and viable. The stability it brings to the series completely justifies the action.

The problem was that previous V10 engine was crap and the guys designing it were several rungs below Duckworth on the ability ladder. Having spoken to people who had to use that engine I know where I'd put the blame, and the other manufacturers isn't it. A crap product will always marketting more difficult.

If the new Cossie engine is as good as the V10 was (or indeed the previous V8 on which it is actually based), the new teams will struggle to achieve anything other than wasting their time...