Pirelli 2013

[Cam]

There is a principle here which has been lost in all this 'RedBull' bashing. You do not dumb down the entire field to compensate for the fact the field can't win. What message does that send? "Don't push yourself to try and win kids, once they that guy wins more than once they'll pirellize it, so it's fair". FFS

[...]

I think that's a very Markonian take on the subject.

Maybe. Doesn't mean it cannot be correct though too. Do you aspire to be the best, or pray they level the field for you? Beating a competitor who's hobbled, in any scenario, is hollow. I want to beat the best on merit. I'll be teaching my kids the same. You might beat me by handicapping me, but at night, when you're alone with your thoughts, you'll know. I know. And so does everyone else. That's the point.

[danielk]

The idea of more stops i feel is a good thing, but the idea of having to tiptoe around the track isn't racing. They can have as many pit stops as they like, its not the pit stops that's the issue. Its the way they have to drive between the pit stops that's a put off. Im no expert on tires, but shouldnt it be just an issue of lowering the tread but hardening the compound? That way they will run out of tread once they have used X amount of rubber making the compound more stable but lasting not as long. Have a consistent compound right the way through the compound but having a massive "cliff".

Renault clearly have a solution which works for them, and Ferrari has a solution which enables them to push harder than others on the tires and still keep them alive. Red bull i think is comparable to the average tire use throughout the field. Renault the best and Mercedes the worst.

I feel sorry for pirrelli as people have been hammering them saying this is what they want and they do it and get hated for it. Pirrelli cannot win here. No matter what they do they will be criticized.

Just a question. I wonder how many stops it would take on the current tires if a driver pushed 100% throughout the race and for them to keep the car at not dropping below 2.5 seconds deg? from the looks of it for Mercedes they cannot do more than 3 laps at 100% before that 2.5 second deg. ?

i say make tires way more consistent and bring back refueling

[bhall]

Maybe. Doesn't mean it cannot be correct though too. Do you aspire to be the best, or pray they level the field for you? Beating a competitor who's hobbled, in any scenario, is hollow. I want to beat the best on merit. I'll be teaching my kids the same. You might beat me by handicapping me, but at night, when you're alone with your thoughts, you'll know. I know. And so does everyone else. That's the point.

But, why do you have in your head that being "the best" is somehow possible while forsaking a fundamental element of the sport?

It's not the FIA Aerodynamic World Championship, nor is the the FIA Powerplant World Championship. It's not even the the FIA Tire World Championship; it's the FIA Formula One World Championship. That means there's a whole host of things teams have to get right in order to be "the best."

If a team fails to develop a car that does not excel in ALL areas of performance, the car that team churns out is, by definition, not "the best" car. And because every team uses the same tires, tires the whole world knows degrade faster than innocence in a cathouse, teams that for whatever reason choose to ignore that significant performance variable in favor of fruitless aerodynamic gains have no one to blame but themselves for their failure. It's no different than the previous failure of other teams to exploit the rules with double-diffusers, exhaust-blown diffusers, and F-ducts.

You have the make the best of what's around; that's what sports are all about.

(Whether or not the overall result of those efforts is befitting of the so-called "pinnacle of motorsport," or is even entertaining to watch, is an entirely different subject altogether.)

[Steven]

The one thing I think they cannot and never will do is revert to the 2012 construction. The construction has a vital influence on the car's aerodynamic, and test use scale model tyres in their windtunnels to get the best possible results. Reverting to the 2012 construction, and hence bending properties will negate the optimisation that the better teams have done through the winter.

McLaren and Sauber have failed to get to grips with the new tyre shape, while Ferrari and Lotus have done a good job.

If something really needs to be done, I'd suggest slightly harder compounds, but that's it.

What I find strange is well are the comments now by Pirelli, while Paul Hembery said that the particular properties of this track led to the 4 stops. The company does not expect this to repeat to the same extent, even with the same tyres.

Of course, three or two stoppers that allow drivers to race their heart out would be better than what we have now. The balance however is apparently hard to get right.

[maxxer]

As i said on another thread , you can't explain that you are cutting costs on one end, but wasting money on the other.
The tyres are made in turkey trucked to the uk then trucked back to the track.
After a race the old tyres are trucked back to the uk.
It is a waste of resources.
Even if they want 2-3 pitstops per race they should focus on 1-2 right now they are making a scene where it is ok for boy racers to ruin their tyres just for fun as in F1 they do also.

This is just so laughable.
Boy racers will ruin their tires for fun because f1 cars ruin their tires
Did you ever consider that ANY RACE TIRE has to be shipped to races and then disposed of?

yes and i know its only a fraction of the total cost , but i would rather see tyres which last instead tyres which can only handle 1 good lap and then start falling off

[Redragon]

The one thing I think they cannot and never will do is revert to the 2012 construction. The construction has a vital influence on the car's aerodynamic, and test use scale model tyres in their windtunnels to get the best possible results. Reverting to the 2012 construction, and hence bending properties will negate the optimisation that the better teams have done through the winter.

McLaren and Sauber have failed to get to grips with the new tyre shape, while Ferrari and Lotus have done a good job.

If something really needs to be done, I'd suggest slightly harder compounds, but that's it.

What I find strange is well are the comments now by Pirelli, while Paul Hembery said that the particular properties of this track led to the 4 stops. The company does not expect this to repeat to the same extent, even with the same tyres.

Of course, three or two stoppers that allow drivers to race their heart out would be better than what we have now. The balance however is apparently hard to get right.

I totally agree with you.
They should do slightly harder compounds to make them last a bit longer but not change the structure.
I am sure Redbull wants to revert to 2012 tyres because of the structure are made of.
Why? let's remind you what they were doing back on 2011 http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/09/p ... -in-monza/ something that with the new structure of 2013 I guess it is hard to do without de-lamination happening on tyre

[Jersey Tom]

Have we had any delamination on tyres which have not been cut?

All of them?

I mean, de-lamination is a consequence of a cut in the tyre

Not true.

So, what is the reason then?

If there were a small patch of tread ripped off the face of the tire, I could maybe see making the argument for a cut. But even then, I've seen cuts in treads and I don't recall it ever ripping treads off. For that matter I'm not sure I've seen that failure mode on open wheel tires.

That the whole tread comes off, and especially that it's cleanly peeled off rather than ripped and torn looking points to a complete lack of adhesion between tread and whatever fabric is directly underneath it (overlay for example). Problem with their design or manufacturing.. not enough strength between layers.

But that's just my take on it.

[Huntresa]

Tires being changed from Canada gp, New structure but same softness...............

[lebesset]

My concern is the de-laminations.

Imagine an incident like that happening through 130R or Eau Rouge, it doesnt take a wild imagination to understand that these failures must not happen again!

Isn't this the same scenario that a driver would suffer a puncture in 130R or Eau Rouge? I mean, de-lamination is a consequence of a cut in the tyre, which previously would have led to a puncture, but now with the new structure the result is de-lamination.

I doubt that this is the explanation. It is the steel band construction that leads to this sudden delamination due to overheating / internal layer separation. After the failure it is relative safe because only the treads flys away but the tyre stays relatively inflated.

who says the delamination is sudden ?
clearly any sidewall cuts will still cause rapid deflation as before , but as the new belt design resists penetration when the tread is cut it will depend on how long it takes for the tread to overheat in the cut area to determine when delamination takes place ; clearly delamination can be caused by other than a cut in the tyre , but examination of every tyre that has delaminated this season has shown it to have been cut ...I was astonished to read that in at least one case it was possible to identify the team it came from as it was marked !

I couldn't say which a driver would prefer from a safety point of view , immediate puncture or delamination , but it cannot have escaped the notice of any regular watcher that the cause of tyre damage is invariably bits of carbon fibre broken off front wings ; so why not change the regulations so the wings are simpler and more durable ; double benefit ....safer due to less tyre damage , and better racing as cars would have greater ability to follow closely

[FrukostScones]

2012 tyre is back. slightly modified with 2013 compounds.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 15485.html

[mojobajojo]

Not sure if this was already mentioned...

http://www.formula1.com/results/season/ ... mmary.html

Vettel, Alonso, Webber, Hamilton, Algersuari, Maldonado and Barrichello all made 4 pit stops in the 2011 Spanish GP. The rest made 3 pit stops. Vettel won.

Was there any changes to the tyre made after that? My memory is not that good but I dont think Pirelli made any changes then. Did Red Bull make any noise about tyres then? I dont think so again. Did Merc complain? Again, no. Alonso came in 5th, again... no complaint.

I think it's not the deg that's the issue here at all. Engineers can and will get around that limitation. What needs to be changed is just the susceptibility of the tyres to random explosive delaminations.

Heikki made the same point:

Heikki Kovalainen
@H_Kovalainen

Lots been talked about the Pirelli tyres - I think the deg is not the main problem, but the tyre failures - F1 tyre should not fail so often

Jon Noble made a quirky point:

Jon Noble
@NobleF1

So, a 2011 Spanish GP where Vettel wins on 4 stops is ace. This year he stops 4 times and it's the end of 'racing'. Am I missing something?

[Richard]

This is a good post by Coulthard - balanced and objective

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22512693

There is no doubt that the spectacle F1 is producing now is far better than the days when we would go off in grid order and that would pretty much be the race result. People have short memories, but those days were really not very long ago at all.

I drove Jim Clark's 1963 Lotus 25 recently. That is an iconic car that took an iconic driver to his first world title, but there is no way on earth he would have been able to push flat out throughout a race. He'd have wrecked the gearbox or the brakes would have run out or something. There were so many compromises that we're just not aware of nowadays.

Fans ... feel they are seeing management rather than racing. They want to imagine the drivers are thrashing the cars from start to finish, even if that is not what is actually happening.

A final point. For me, there is a much bigger worry about the tyres than the complaints about racing - and that's the number of failures there have been this year.

I understand that Pirelli say they are being caused by cuts, but one of these days that failure is going to happen at a critical point on a race track in a critical racing situation.

[mojobajojo]

That's two former and one current F1 driver now saying the same thing. Webber is the current. They are more worried about the random failures. And who wouldnt be? Eau Rouge, Pouhon, 130r, the tunnel exit at Monaco where the Connor Daly had an accident and lots more... all scary stuff with that kind of failure.

[Dragonfly]

Again, people fall into that Red Bull - Vettel trap. It's not about one team and one driver. I am no fan of Hamilton but acknowledge his abilities and it was shame looking at one of the best racers yesterday not able to show anything of what he's capable. Same for Rosberg, same for Hulkenberg, Perez, etc.
Already at the next race the roulette may bring another team on top and Ferrari may suffer. Then what? Ferrari fans are going to complain and get the same answers in return?
Everyone should clarify for himself what he'd like - his favorite team/driver win at any cost or have a healthy sport with true competition where driver skills and speed as well as using 100% of the potential of a given car decide the outcome.
Number of pit stops is a hollow goal. As teams will always try to find a way to make less and performance range of different tyres does not provide enough differential to have the options for varying strategies. If you want to have more stops, you have to have at your disposal tyres which allow building a time gap by pushing harder for less laps or, if you count on the opposite strategy, - tyres which give less maximal race pace but last longer.
And, if towards the end of the year teams actually find a way to make less pit stops, what will Pirelli do? Make even more cheesy tyres? This is a downward spiral and I hope it does not end with someone seriously hurt or God forbid - dead.

[Glyn]

Just a quick thought but is the whole tyre debacle a question of money.

Are Pirelli trying to produce Tyres with as little outlay as possible.