Pirelli 2013

[VIZSLA]

And now.....the plot thickens. As several of you have suggested, changes to tires mid-season can only be done on the grounds of safety. Pirelli says there is no safety issue. And so the FIA is now saying that changes will not be allowed.

Being a fan of Formula One is a little like reading Alice in Wonderland over and over. "Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.

Pirelli's Canada changes now under cloud

Pirelli's planned changes to its controversial tyres for Canada and beyond are now under a dark cloud. Media reports, including by Marco Canseco in the Spanish sports daily Marca, say the FIA has hit back by insisting that mid-season changes are only allowed on the grounds of safety.

But Pirelli's Paul Hembery had announced last week that the planned changes, for Montreal and beyond, are because "the number of pitstops was too high" so far in 2013. The FIA's opposite view is enshrined in the technical regulations.

At the very same time, Hembery hit out at teams like Red Bull and Mercedes, who have "used the media" to pile the pressure on Pirelli. "What has changed compared to the past two years," he told German newspaper Bild am Sonntag, "is that people have used the media in order to get a benefit for themselves. The people who criticise make the headlines," Hembery added, "but we have been contacted by many people who are asking us not to give in to the pressure."

So after Red Bull and Mercedes complained loudly about the changes, other teams like Lotus, Ferrari and Force India - whose cars work well with the existing 2013 tyres - are hitting back just as strongly. Lotus team owner Gerard Lopez told Welt am Sonntag newspaper that it is "stupid" that changes can be made "that punish the clever and creative teams" whilst "rewarding the losers. Where is the sport in that?" he quipped.

"I don't know exactly why Pirelli is making changes," Force India driver Paul di Resta is quoted by Speed Week, "but I've been told that everything is fair. "I suspect that the changes will hurt us, Ferrari and Lotus a little bit more than the others. "We invested a lot of time in the winter to get these tyres working, so of course these changes are a bit frustrating," he added.

Di Resta said he doubts Pirelli can justify the changes on the grounds of safety, as is required by the regulations. "I don't think they (the tyres) are dangerous," he insisted. "People have been getting excited about the last race, but we had no problems in the race. I think most of the tyre failures are down to driving over debris."

And if this has been posted previously, I apologize, but Ferrari had some unkind things to say about all this last week:



MAY 17, 2013
Ferrari joins Lotus in tyre tweak criticism

Ferrari has joined Lotus in criticising Pirelli's mid-season tyre tweak. Following early-season criticism, culminating in the furore after Barcelona recently, Pirelli announced it is making key changes to its controversial 2013 tyres for next month's Canadian grand prix and beyond.

Lotus team owner Gerard Lopez was the first to react, likening the change to widening football goals because one team was always striking the post.

Now, in the anonymous 'Horse Whisperer' column posted on the official Ferrari website, Ferrari has lashed out at those who claim four-stop strategies in F1 show that the tyres are too extreme. Undoubtedly, the Ferrari writer is referring to the kind of criticism made by world champions Red Bull.

"It's a shame that these worthy souls kept quiet two years ago when, at the very same Catalunya circuit and on the Istanbul track, five of the six drivers who got to those two podiums made exactly the same number of pitstops," the column read.

Ferrari also recalled the 2004 French grand prix, when Michael Schumacher won at Magny Cours with a four-stopper that left Ferrari and Bridgestone "showered with praise" within the paddock.

"Today however, it seems one must almost feel ashamed for choosing a strategy that, as always for that matter, is aimed at getting the most out of the package one has available," the column added.


Take THAT, Dr. Helmet Darko!

It's always a mistake to take anything said by anyone in F1 at face value.

[Nomore]

But as i said previously, the best answer was given by "The Horse whisperer". With that being said, i stopped discussing about Barcelona2011 and Barcelona2013, because people will not change opinions...here we are in a sport, and as all sports, fan biased opinions are much more powerful than "what really happens"

Are you not a fan as well?

Yes, I’m a fan, Ferraris fan. In the case you haven’t read it yet, here is what I wrote in this thread @ May 15 2013, 9:40 am

But anyway even if i'm a Ferrari fan i will disagree with them if they agree to change the tires. You can NOT change the rules of a game once the game has started...So in this battle i'm with Lotus till now and waiting for the official position of the Ferrari ...

You can find this declaration in this thread (Pirelli 2013) at page 36. This declaration was made before Ferrari release their public opinion about tires tweak in the “Horse Whisperer” column posted on the official Ferrari website.
In this point, I have been clear since day one in the Australian gp 2013 when Adrian Newey started this unfair, illegal and unsporting battle to change the Pirelli 2013 tires in their favor.

There is nothing wrong being a fan, but here we are talking about rules and principles, not about opinions. Thanks to FIA (or I have to wait better…), that decided to use their rights to not let this farce happens.

I can understand that some fans does not like too much pit stop, don't like degradation or I can even understand RB explanation about why they cannot extract the maximum from their cars. But tires should not change once the season have started it’s very wrong, it’s unfair, it’s illegal (based on 12.6.3). The only changes that I accept in an ongoing season are only when one of the following statements is positive:
1. When FIA declare them illegal or unsafe.
2. All teams agree to make a change.

I think all fans should have agreed at last on this.
Another discussion is in the end of the season.

[turbof1]

You can find this declaration in this thread (Pirelli 2013) at page 36. This declaration was made before Ferrari release their public opinion about tires tweak in the “Horse Whisperer” column posted on the official Ferrari website.
In this point, I have been clear since day one in the Australian gp 2013 when Adrian Newey started this unfair, illegal and unsporting battle to change the Pirelli 2013 tires in their favor.

Even though lobbying is undesirable in any sport, it is NOT illegal. Infact your favorite team did it so many years, even succesfully lobbied for having a veto right during the previous concorde agreement. Unfair, yes. Unsporting, yes. Illegal: no. It's part of it.

There is nothing wrong being a fan, but here we are talking about rules and principles, not about opinions. Thanks to FIA (or I have to wait better…), that decided to use their rights to not let this farce happens.

The tyres will still change, only we do not know by how much. Most likely the belt will change back to kevlar one, but this will influence how the shoulder deforms. This is a safety reason, which is allowed without concensus of the teams. The FIA even openly declared, in the same press release that they don't want changes that go against the rules, that they wished to have the tyre changed to get rid of the unsafe delaminations:

Sources have revealed that the governing body has told Pirelli that it is happy to accept – and is indeed wants – alterations aimed at preventing a repeat of the rear tire delaminations that have struck at the last few events.

There is nothing wrong being a fan, but here we are talking about rules and principles, not about opinions.

Yet you openly quote and follow feverishly The Horse Whisperer, a column you yourself deemed to be nothing more then an opinion. Please take the following very seriously:

In F1, rules have holes, principles have absolutely no meaning, and opinions are what make F1. It was like that with the double diffuser, the f-duct, flex wings etc. They all used loopholes in the rules, went completely against the principle of the rule, and the teams had the opinion it was legal.

[Ferrari2183]

You can find this declaration in this thread (Pirelli 2013) at page 36. This declaration was made before Ferrari release their public opinion about tires tweak in the “Horse Whisperer” column posted on the official Ferrari website.
In this point, I have been clear since day one in the Australian gp 2013 when Adrian Newey started this unfair, illegal and unsporting battle to change the Pirelli 2013 tires in their favor.

Even though lobbying is undesirable in any sport, it is NOT illegal. Infact your favorite team did it so many years, even succesfully lobbied for having a veto right during the previous concorde agreement. Unfair, yes. Unsporting, yes. Illegal: no. It's part of it.

There is nothing wrong being a fan, but here we are talking about rules and principles, not about opinions. Thanks to FIA (or I have to wait better…), that decided to use their rights to not let this farce happens.

The tyres will still change, only we do not know by how much. Most likely the belt will change back to kevlar one, but this will influence how the shoulder deforms. This is a safety reason, which is allowed without concensus of the teams. The FIA even openly declared, in the same press release that they don't want changes that go against the rules, that they wished to have the tyre changed to get rid of the unsafe delaminations:

Sources have revealed that the governing body has told Pirelli that it is happy to accept – and is indeed wants – alterations aimed at preventing a repeat of the rear tire delaminations that have struck at the last few events.

There is nothing wrong being a fan, but here we are talking about rules and principles, not about opinions.

Yet you openly quote and follow feverishly The Horse Whisperer, a column you yourself deemed to be nothing more then an opinion. Please take the following very seriously:

In F1, rules have holes, principles have absolutely no meaning, and opinions are what make F1. It was like that with the double diffuser, the f-duct, flex wings etc. They all used loopholes in the rules, went completely against the principle of the rule, and the teams had the opinion it was legal.

I don't think the belt will be going back to kevlar. That could be seen as going back to 2012 specification which the FIA has explicitly forbidden.

I think the steel belt will stay and the bonding agent will be strengthened. They might have to increase the rigidity of the sidewalls and shoulders though. Rather small changes in comparison to a shift to kevlar.

[Bomber_Pilot]

May I just ask something.... why is delamination being considered to be so dangerous? I mean why is it more dangerous than the tyre deflating? In both cases there is little to no warning of what's going to happen (except in punctures that cause the tyre to deflate slowly) and according to Pirelli, if you would hit the same debris with last years tires they would deflate and this year they delaminate (because of the steel bealt). So what safety arguments are there for the change of the tire structure?

[Paul]

They are not forbidden from reverting to 2012 specs, they are forbidden from changing specs, period. Unless it is on safety grounds. On safety grounds, they are free to change problem related aspects of the tyre to 2012, 2011 or any other.

[turbof1]

May I just ask something.... why is delamination being considered to be so dangerous? I mean why is it more dangerous than the tyre deflating? In both cases there is little to no warning of what's going to happen (except in punctures that cause the tyre to deflate slowly) and according to Pirelli, if you would hit the same debris with last years tires they would deflate and this year they delaminate (because of the steel bealt). So what safety arguments are there for the change of the tire structure?

With deflation, the rubber doesn't go off as brutally as with delamination. With delamination, huge chunks of rubber are flung in all direction, damaging the car, but more importantly, could hit a driver unlucky enough to be driving right behind it. We've saw what a small spring could do to a driver, pieces of tyre with a higher mass could be potentionally lethal if hit at the head.

[Huntresa]

They are not forbidden from reverting to 2012 specs, they are forbidden from changing specs, period. Unless it is on safety grounds. On safety grounds, they are free to change problem related aspects of the tyre to 2012, 2011 or any other.

They are forbidden to go back to 2012 specs unless its safety, cause just going back to 2012 would constitute changing specs, even if they arent changing the current ones but bringing in new, new=change in this case.

[Ferrari2183]

They are not forbidden from reverting to 2012 specs, they are forbidden from changing specs, period. Unless it is on safety grounds. On safety grounds, they are free to change problem related aspects of the tyre to 2012, 2011 or any other.

Dude...

But, in a blow to outfits like Red Bull hoping further tweaks would help them overcome tyre difficulties they have faced, the FIA has made it clear it will not tolerate further changes aimed at reducing the number of pitstops or decreasing degradation.

Sorting out the issue must also not lead to a change of specification back to the 2012 tyres, as some had suggested could happen.

Instead, Pirelli has been instructed to solve the matter by modifying the current specification of tyres. It is now close to finalising tweaks in this direction.

Source

It doesn't get any clearer than that.

[Spankyham]

Pirelli can't make any changes to the spec they put out for this year. No ifs or buts on that.
If there is a safety issue with the 2013 tire (and Pirelli are already on record dating there is not) then ONLY with FiA concurrence and agreement changes can be made to address safety only. Pirelli cannot make that decision unilaterally

[raymondu999]

ONLY with FiA concurrence

Actually they don't need FiA agreement - they just need agreement from all 11 teams. Which isn't gonna happen anyways, which makes it a moot point.

[turbof1]

From what I understand is that Pirelli will bring new tyres anyway without approval (or for that matter, also without disapproval) to Canada, so that the teams can decide on if they can find themselves with the alterations. If one teams says no after the race, expect either again different tyres for the race after, or the old 2013 tyres.

The most stranges part is that for Barcelona, pirelli made (minor) alterations for the hard tyre. Not one team complained about that.

[Ferrari2183]

From what I understand is that Pirelli will bring new tyres anyway without approval (or for that matter, also without disapproval) to Canada, so that the teams can decide on if they can find themselves with the alterations. If one teams says no after the race, expect either again different tyres for the race after, or the old 2013 tyres.

The most stranges part is that for Barcelona, pirelli made (minor) alterations for the hard tyre. Not one team complained about that.

I think you have that wrong. Pirelli have already said that the changes will not be as big as they've previously stated, this is probably due to the FIA involvement now. There will, as I understand it, be minor structural changes to address the delaminations as the FIA are keen on having that eradicated but there will be no reverting to a 2012 spec. They simply have to fix what they have now.

Also, the teams will have no say once the changes have been made if they do indeed fix the delaminations unless they reach unanimous agreement which is highly unlikely.

Regarding the changes made for Spain... For the race tyre they merely changed the compound to that of 2012 but I have a sneaky feeling that the experimental hard tyre used in free practice was designed to address the delaminations and what we will have in Canada is a specification based on said experimental tyre.

However, with the FIA stepping in, it most likely puts a stop to Pirelli's constant tinkering with the tyres which has been happening since 2011. This is the only good thing to have come out of this.

[Huntresa]

ONLY with FiA concurrence

Actually they don't need FiA agreement - they just need agreement from all 11 teams. Which isn't gonna happen anyways, which makes it a moot point.

The first rule includes the teams, the second doesn't and is just fia, and that second is the safety rules

[turbof1]

I think you have that wrong. Pirelli have already said that the changes will not be as big as they've previously stated, this is probably due to the FIA involvement now. There will, as I understand it, be minor structural changes to address the delaminations as the FIA are keen on having that eradicated but there will be no reverting to a 2012 spec. They simply have to fix what they have now.

The problem is nobody, not the teams, not the fia, not even pirelli, will really know how much the "minor" changes will affect the durability and performance, until they are properly tried out on track. Even small changes might have a big impact. That is of course undesired, but that there is a real chance to it. Both the teams and pirelli need to be given a fair chance to try them out before judgement. The only thing teams get before canada is some off track data from which they can't know if its correlates with the reality.

For the record, I hope the tyres will indeed only fix the delaminations. I am against the current tyres, but I don't want each race new changes either. Teams will eventually find ways to reduce the pitstops themselves so later on in the season things will be better. Next year pirelli should play it conservative though; teams will have enough on their plate then.