2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

[langwadt]

My mistake was forgetting that race threads are incapable of nuance.

Oops.

I get your point. We disagree on the racing details, but effectively you should not be attempting any form of squeezing in the first place on your team mate. Trying to squeeze by taking the racing line can just as well lead to a crash. If I really had to draw a line in the sand, I would do it like described in my previous comments. But really trying to do this at all is just madness. Rosberg is doing this only because Hamilton squeezed out Rosberg in the past. It's what you get when you have 2 drivers having zero respect for one another. It's also why I laugh at Toto's threat with team orders: like they'll ever follow those.

I disagree that you can't squeeze. Squeezing is a part of racing. The fairness of it lies in where and how you squeeze.

from the sporting regulations:

20.5 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted

[PlatinumZealot]

I get your point. We disagree on the racing details, but effectively you should not be attempting any form of squeezing in the first place on your team mate. Trying to squeeze by taking the racing line can just as well lead to a crash. If I really had to draw a line in the sand, I would do it like described in my previous comments. But really trying to do this at all is just madness. Rosberg is doing this only because Hamilton squeezed out Rosberg in the past. It's what you get when you have 2 drivers having zero respect for one another. It's also why I laugh at Toto's threat with team orders: like they'll ever follow those.

I disagree that you can't squeeze. Squeezing is a part of racing. The fairness of it lies in where and how you squeeze.

Squeezing in terms of pushing your opponent to the edge of the track is fine. The squeezing we have seen from these 2 is purposely pushing your team mate beyond the limits of the track and effectively running them off/out of road. Still, for the sake of the team who give you the car to race, you should always be more lenient towards your teammate. You are not out there racing purely for your own interests after all.

Yes. This is fair too depending on the situation. You can run your opponent off the road fairly. It all depends on if he has space to react, and an "escape." A choice of sorts. In braking zones and towards the apex or cutting across your opponent give no escape, and is essentially unsafe. If you have the apex and your opponent along side you doesn't, he won't make the apex anyway, so you can run him off the road post apex. He has already braked, his car is in full control so he is fine. He can slow and fall in behind you or try a cut back. If you make the apex and get understeer, and your opponent is slightly behind but you run him off, that is fair. On the other hand if your opponent is ahead, and on the racing line - you are at fault if you understeer into him. He can't see you - You can see him. You can react. He can't. You are wrong in this case. So it is all to do with circumstance, and there are many more scenarios I haven't mentioned.

[PlatinumZealot]

It was not a racing incident. It was a malicious attack to punt his title rival off the road.

Again...

"...I went deep to keep him outside a little bit.."! #FromTheHorsesMouth

"When you are on the outside you have to expect that. It's tough for sure, but this is not a friendly game of chess..."

~ Lewis Hamilton, Suzuka 2015

The point here is not to absolve anyone of anything, only to say that what happened wasn't so far out of line that it should be considered unreasonable.

Sometimes --- happens.

Bhall, Bhall.. I still cannot agree with you that Suzuka 2015 is similar. Hamilton is darned right, yes. He should be proud of that wonderfully executed defense of his race line.

This is nothing like what happened today. Not in the very least. Hamilton had the line and was ahead. He left sace.. aaaannd.. he didn't hit Nico.

[bhall II]

I need to start paying better attention to myself.

Don't really care enough to argue. I've said my piece.

[jknights]

Where is this information derived from.
Url please.
Thanks.

http://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula-o ... nformation

Thanks.

[turbof1]

It was not a racing incident. It was a malicious attack to punt his title rival off the road.

Again...

"When you are on the outside you have to expect that. It's tough for sure, but this is not a friendly game of chess..."

~ Lewis Hamilton, Suzuka 2015

The point here is not to absolve anyone of anything, only to say that what happened wasn't so far out of line that it should be considered unreasonable.

Sometimes --- happens.

Bhall, Bhall.. I still cannot agree with you that Suzuka 2015 is similar. Hamilton is darned right, yes. He should be proud of that wonderfully executed defense of his race line.

This is nothing like what happened today. Not in the very least. Hamilton had the line and was ahead. He left sace.. aaaannd.. he didn't hit Nico.

I guess this is the difference between looking at this black and white, and looking for the grey area. Both of you are as equally correct as wrong. For me the underlying issue between Hamilton and Rosberg in general, is too much agression towards one another as you don't see this often between other teammates. I think Bhall is not so much looking for who is right and who is to blame for this specific case, but looking how much this differs from what Hamilton has done. You'll point it's different on points A to Z, and he'll point out the underlying attitude is not really different.

And that's difference between me and you dear PZ . I too was argueing from a black and white standpoint, but quickly looked from Ben's perspective. There is a difference between blame and responsibility.

This is by the way not the last time they'll crash. Toto Wolf can swing with team orders all he likes, but these 2 are guaranteed to ignore it.

[mrluke]

I disagree that you can't squeeze. Squeezing is a part of racing. The fairness of it lies in where and how you squeeze.

from the sporting regulations:

20.5 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted

Gah this again.

The car that was behind t-boned the car that was in front at a corner.

If it wasn't for the fact that hamilton was involved there wouldn't be any further discussion.

Once again as soon as Ros is under pressure he gets all ham fisted and clumsy. He needs to get over that if he is going to be WDC.

Turbo, I think the reason for the underlying aggression from both drivers is that there is a WDC in the balance, everybody knows that one of the Mercs will win it and from a historical statistics only view Ham is making Ros look like a complete no 2 driver. Its looking like Ham is going to get 3 WDCs on the trot and nothing Ros does seems to change it.

Fwiw I thought Ros had a brilliant drive today and thoroughly deserved the victory until he threw it away on T1 of the last lap.

[Pierce89]

I disagree that you can't squeeze. Squeezing is a part of racing. The fairness of it lies in where and how you squeeze.

Squeezing in terms of pushing your opponent to the edge of the track is fine. The squeezing we have seen from these 2 is purposely pushing your team mate beyond the limits of the track and effectively running them off/out of road. Still, for the sake of the team who give you the car to race, you should always be more lenient towards your teammate. You are not out there racing purely for your own interests after all.

Yes. This is fair too depending on the situation. You can run your opponent off the road fairly. It all depends on if he has space to react, and an "escape." A choice of sorts. In braking zones and towards the apex or cutting across your opponent give no escape, and is essentially unsafe. If you have the apex and your opponent along side you doesn't, he won't make the apex anyway, so you can run him off the road post apex. He has already braked, his car is in full control so he is fine. He can slow and fall in behind you or try a cut back. If you make the apex and get understeer, and your opponent is slightly behind but you run him off, that is fair. On the other hand if your opponent is ahead, and on the racing line - you are at fault if you understeer into him. He can't see you - You can see him. You can react. He can't. You are wrong in this case. So it is all to do with circumstance, and there are many more scenarios I haven't mentioned.

When I started watching f1, and I'm only 33, it wasn't considered kosher to drive anyone off the track. People just started doing mental gymnastics to claim the moves Shumi did were legal. Before that, the inside driver was never allowed the push the outside guy off, just because "he had the line". Before Shumi ruled f1, outside passes were fairly normal because the inside guy can't get off the corner as hard, because he needs more steering lock(unless he runs the outside guy off).

[iotar__]

I agree, he is not a Deity, just a kid still.
But how do you explain his tyre deg compared to Ricciardo?
Soley to running in cleaner air?

I explain it by A. being quicker and better on tyres in this race. B. Ricciardo not being highest quality race driver, Vergne used to be quicker often and Kvyat had awful race pace. The rest is a matter of competition or rather lack thereof - Raikkonen. Can we then agree that being off the pace over in Q is there on merit and not because of new car adjustments? No only good news marketing.

- From many previous posts: the rule that you can deliberately push others off as long as you're 'ahead' (therefore for example USA '15, Suzuka, Canada etc is fine) doesn't exist. Excuse badly deducted from BS ruling.

- After replays: Rosb-Ham is not even in the same universe as Spain crash which makes difference in penalties bizarre. Fully ahead is questionable (he was outside and not fully ahead) and leaving space is selective. Headlines should be: "Hamilton wins after Rosberg's brake failure in the last two laps".
Why wasn't Massa penalized for Hungary '12 (swear it's the last time ) according to these "space" rules? Oh yeah there was no collision and Grosjean, who unlike Hamilton was ahead and inside (full overtake not 40%) went off for 30 cm and 0,5 s to avoid contact and got 20 s instead. FIA has no consistent racing rules.

The 18 y/o Dutchman got more points since he's in the RedBull then the WC leader Rosberg did in the mighty Mercedes.

Selective BS stats? I'll leave you the duty of explaining this but here's one for you: Dutchman who took part in 28 F1 races has been on average slower than his team by 0,904 s since he joined Red Bull. This does not include Monaco where in the best car he was classified 20th.

[Jolle]

And yet he's the third highest ranking since he joined RedBull, behind HAM and VET. Bit of luck, bit if misfortune of his opposition, but non the less, excellent race craft.

[langwadt]

I disagree that you can't squeeze. Squeezing is a part of racing. The fairness of it lies in where and how you squeeze.

from the sporting regulations:

20.5 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted

Gah this again.

The car that was behind t-boned the car that was in front at a corner.

If it wasn't for the fact that hamilton was involved there wouldn't be any further discussion.

Once again as soon as Ros is under pressure he gets all ham fisted and clumsy. He needs to get over that if he is going to be WDC.

Turbo, I think the reason for the underlying aggression from both drivers is that there is a WDC in the balance, everybody knows that one of the Mercs will win it and from a historical statistics only view Ham is making Ros look like a complete no 2 driver. Its looking like Ham is going to get 3 WDCs on the trot and nothing Ros does seems to change it.

Fwiw I thought Ros had a brilliant drive today and thoroughly deserved the victory until he threw it away on T1 of the last lap.

and if Ros loses it by less than 6 points he will be beating himself for not taking the 18 points
instead of 12

[PlatinumZealot]

It was a joy to watch Verstappen today, Raikönnen must "hate " him for fending him of a seccond time like this.
I was almost sure he was going the overtake Verstappen, he had lost a lot of grip the final laps of the race .

Raikönnen was lapping more than a seccond a lap faster then Max, but could not get ahead =D>
He is so good in wheel to wheel battles, amazing to watch.

It was the yellow flags that save Max. Max is great,but he is not the Pirreli tyre Deity!

I agree, he is not a Deity, just a kid still.
But how do you explain his tyre deg compared to Ricciardo?
Soley to running in cleaner air?

I think Ricciardo doesn't take it so calmly when his teammate is infront. Max I think has better race pace today. I really rate max as good as I rate Vettel when he was new.
Just saying that because of the age of Max's tyres, Kimi would have easily passed him if it weren't for the yellow flags.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Fwiw I thought Ros had a brilliant drive today and thoroughly deserved the victory until he threw it away on T1 of the last lap.

Of course any idiot's drive would have looked brilliant yesterday, thanks to Mercedes Jokers (read strategists).
1. They stole Lewis' advantage that he had build on Rosberg, which was 30 seconds after Nico's first stop. They allowed all that to wash away before they gave a pit stop.
2. They assured him that he was on course for one stop and made him drive conservatively while Nico was ahead. As demonstrated in the end, he could have blasted past Nico after first pit stops, if they had told him that he is also on two stopper. A fresh set of Softs going slower than a 11 lap old set and the madness was allowed for 30 laps.
3. They gave 3.3 seconds of cumulative slow pit stops.
4. Out of the blue, they changed Lewis' strategy from a comfortable, no brainer one stop to a mindless two stop.

Ultimately, there was no better sight than seeing a limping Nico. It was a shame that he didn't crashed in a barrier. Although Mercedes disgustingly and shamelessly conspired against Lewis, destiny had other ideas. =D>

I can't remember a WDC contender, driving as clumsy as Nico (Barcelona, Canada spin, Austria farce). He is only fighting, because of Lewis' early misfortunes and Mercedes' shameless strategic blunders (Holding lewis off in Russia, Austria blunder) because they want Nico to win. Not sure when was the last time a team supported a pathetic and inferior driver to win a WDC, over the other team mate, who is is proven and regarded as one of the best on the grid.

I wish to see as many wet races as possible for the remainder of the year. Only because, no matter what Mercedes do, Nico simply can't hold the steering in wet.

Nico hasn't won on any of the upcoming 9 circuits. That is a great statistic.

[TAG]

I wish to see as many wet races as possible for the remainder of the year. Only because, no matter what Mercedes do, Nico simply can't hold the steering in wet.

I've started referring to Nico as Mr. Water Soluble.

[flickerf1]

I wish to see as many wet races as possible for the remainder of the year. Only because, no matter what Mercedes do, Nico simply can't hold the steering in wet.

I've started referring to Nico as Mr. Water Soluble.

We should refer to him as Mr. Hydrophobic!