2016 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, Fri 01 – Sun 03 Jul 2016

[Gothrek]

Well on the contrary, I think that the tyres have to deal with a lot. Low speed corners, high speed corners, 10 different types of chassis/downforce levels, 3 different types of power delivery curves, 24 different driving styles, at least (perhaps a dozen) different types of tarmac and that tarmac can have a range of 30C throughout a single race weekend, and not to mention being adaptable to a car that will be several seconds a lap faster at the start of the season to the end and with Pirelli not having time to develop the tyres during in-season testing.

The worst thing is the more Pirelli is attacked by the public, the less likely they are to improve the tyres. Only when we and the teams accept that tyres will fail sometimes will Pirelli feel the freedom to progress and develop the tyres. Now they are probably too scared to change lest they make things worse.

I didn't say they have go through little. I said you cannot compare it to an engine in complexity. Do you think that engines don't go through what you just describe? Different engine modes, braking, how a driver drives. Yet for such a amazingly complex device, we don't have that many blowouts...

Pirelli should just be dismissed, they have had their change, they have proved that they cannot build a decent tire. They are just incapable of it. And still some people defend them... Do you hear Honda complaining on how McLaren are using their engines wrong? No. They just try to improve and work hard. Pirelli just comes up with excuses...

[komninosm]

Well on the contrary, I think that the tyres have to deal with a lot. Low speed corners, high speed corners, 10 different types of chassis/downforce levels, 3 different types of power delivery curves, 24 different driving styles, at least (perhaps a dozen) different types of tarmac and that tarmac can have a range of 30C throughout a single race weekend, and not to mention being adaptable to a car that will be several seconds a lap faster at the start of the season to the end and with Pirelli not having time to develop the tyres during in-season testing.

The worst thing is the more Pirelli is attacked by the public, the less likely they are to improve the tyres. Only when we and the teams accept that tyres will fail sometimes will Pirelli feel the freedom to progress and develop the tyres. Now they are probably too scared to change lest they make things worse.

I disagree.
Tires being the same for all teams have a huge allowance in their design. They could make the tires a lot stronger (not durable) and a bit heavier and it would still be fair since all teams get the same. A team cannot make a component in the suspension heavier but safer and not lose to its competitors.
Tires can be designed from the ground up and regulations are the same for all. They can be improved a lot. Not easily, but it's worth it. We were promised tires that would have a cliff drop off performance. I haven't seen that much at all. Tires are more likely to blow out before they reach their cliff it seems.

[Phil]

Gothrek, you may want to consider that never has a tire manufacturer been given the clear and well understood instruction to build tires for entertainment reasons. The tires are as they are to represent a challenge and a certain type of racing to enhance the 'show'. One of the reasons for this, is that with the ban on refueling, there would be less variables during the race on hard/durable tires. Everyone would one-stop and you wouldn't be facing a car on worse tires vs car on better tires anytime during the race. By having different compounds and them being very sensitive, you enhance the potential for unpredictable circumstance that is still somewhat dictated by strategy playing a decisive role on the outcome of a race.

That the tires may happen to be too sensitive at times and explode is part of that risk. You can't make tires like balloons for the sake of entertainment but then have them withstand unlimited amount of load on light (qualifying) as well as heavy (start of the race) cars under every single predetermined circumstance. It's. Just. Not. Possible.

It's something Pirelli needs to address for the safety, but it's something especially the sport as a whole needs to answer and solve. Me? I'd have refueling back in a heart-beat. Perhaps in combination with these Pirelli tires. It probably would solve itself then, as the cars would be lighter most of the time, but it would be fascinating to see who fuels how much, who drives on which tires etc.

[zac510]

I didn't say they have go through little. I said you cannot compare it to an engine in complexity. Do you think that engines don't go through what you just describe? Different engine modes, braking, how a driver drives. Yet for such a amazingly complex device, we don't have that many blowouts...

But we have engine blowups every weekend. We don't have tyre blowouts every weekend.

[krisfx]

Your advise to "turn in" as idiotic as it is is completely unnecessary, Hamilton did something equally bad, attempted stupid move with zero chance of success, went off, lost control, caused the crash and took them both out of the race losing Mercedes 1-2 and 43 points. It does not get worse than that.

The fact that Spain crash wasn't penalised and objectively lesser incident in Austria was on top of equally different team's reaction (quotes below) shows that drivers are not treated equally by FIA and Mercedes. Hamilton's example of the worst possible driving was not only not penalised but awarded with 7 points gained (Rosberg's very probably win) and team orders the next race. If FIA can sweep this under the carpet means that there are no rules in F1.
So let me explain something Toto Wolff, there was no collisions because on four occasions (fourth - dirty cut in Bahrain) Rosberg was going off or braking, fifth (Spain) - he could not do anything about. Your driver management of ignoring those and only attacking Rosberg after Spa is a direct reason for both '16 collisions. He of course knows that well.
Edit: corrected quotes.

I'm sorry, did I just read that as you blaming Hamilton for the Spain crash where Rosberg rammed him off track on the straight?

Wow. That's some rose tinted spectacles you have there.

As for those people complaining about Hamilton at the 2015 USGP:

1. It was wet.
2. Lewis turns into the corner to hit the apex normally
3. Understeers out wide with both cars turned in.
4. Rosberg gets run out on the exit of the corner as would be expected, where you have the option of simply backing off a little and tucking in.

What he doesn't do is deliberately drive Rosberg off the track with no intention of even turning into the apex. It's not even the same scenario, it bears no resemblance.

even if hamilton shoot rosberg with a gun, some people would say it's Rosberg’s fault

Rosberg's history of driving people off the circuit on straights is well documented and does not do him any favours when these things happen.

[komninosm]

Bottas vs Kimi last year was worse than this and I can't remember so many people being so harsh on him! It's not like it was a Maldonado stunt

Although the incidents are only broadly similar I think the key thing is that the number of people blaming Bottas for the crash and saying Kimi did nothing wrong was a lot lower. There is a tendency for people to look for confirmation from others rather than evidence and, if those others disagree, to try and persuade them that they are wrong. The more people with a different opinion, the more posts beating the same dead horse. Really, all we've gained from all these pages is a couple of different camera angles and the Steward's report. Everything else related to the crash has just been noise (although I personally found the point about escalation of harsh driving to be interesting).

Also I don't understand how anyone can say that crash last year was worse. It wasn't between teammates and title contenders, and it wasn't on purpose or in any way similar to this race. Kimi was behind the whole time while Hamilton passed Rosberg. Also Kimi tried for an inside pass. Bottas did not block a car that passed him on the outside and punt it (T-bone) off the track. After what Rosberg did to his teammate in Spain, this is atrocious behavior.

[Gothrek]

I didn't say they have go through little. I said you cannot compare it to an engine in complexity. Do you think that engines don't go through what you just describe? Different engine modes, braking, how a driver drives. Yet for such a amazingly complex device, we don't have that many blowouts...

But we have engine blowups every weekend. We don't have tyre blowouts every weekend.

Like I explained, engines being prototypes with thousands of pieces of equipment. And are they really blowouts? Or sometimes that a driver stops because something was indicating to fail?
Now think of the tire blow out of Vettel:
- No decrease in performance
- No dropping pressure are anything weird on the sensors
- Exploding randomly

How many randomly exploding engines do we have every weekend? Where we don't see it happening up front?

[holeindalip]

Your advise to "turn in" as idiotic as it is is completely unnecessary, Hamilton did something equally bad, attempted stupid move with zero chance of success, went off, lost control, caused the crash and took them both out of the race losing Mercedes 1-2 and 43 points. It does not get worse than that.

The fact that Spain crash wasn't penalised and objectively lesser incident in Austria was on top of equally different team's reaction (quotes below) shows that drivers are not treated equally by FIA and Mercedes. Hamilton's example of the worst possible driving was not only not penalised but awarded with 7 points gained (Rosberg's very probably win) and team orders the next race. If FIA can sweep this under the carpet means that there are no rules in F1.
So let me explain something Toto Wolff, there was no collisions because on four occasions (fourth - dirty cut in Bahrain) Rosberg was going off or braking, fifth (Spain) - he could not do anything about. Your driver management of ignoring those and only attacking Rosberg after Spa is a direct reason for both '16 collisions. He of course knows that well.
Edit: corrected quotes.

I'm sorry, did I just read that as you blaming Hamilton for the Spain crash where Rosberg rammed him off track on the straight?

Wow. That's some rose tinted spectacles you have there.

As for those people complaining about Hamilton at the 2015 USGP:

1. It was wet.
2. Lewis turns into the corner to hit the apex normally
3. Understeers out wide with both cars turned in.
4. Rosberg gets run out on the exit of the corner as would be expected, where you have the option of simply backing off a little and tucking in.

What he doesn't do is deliberately drive Rosberg off the track with no intention of even turning into the apex. It's not even the same scenario, it bears no resemblance.

even if hamilton shoot rosberg with a gun, some people would say it's Rosberg’s fault

You must've tuned in late because you didn't see rosberg stab ham with a knife lol

[zac510]

I didn't say they have go through little. I said you cannot compare it to an engine in complexity. Do you think that engines don't go through what you just describe? Different engine modes, braking, how a driver drives. Yet for such a amazingly complex device, we don't have that many blowouts...

But we have engine blowups every weekend. We don't have tyre blowouts every weekend.

Like I explained, engines being prototypes with thousands of pieces of equipment. And are they really blowouts? Or sometimes that a driver stops because something was indicating to fail?
Now think of the tire blow out of Vettel:
- No decrease in performance
- No dropping pressure are anything weird on the sensors
- Exploding randomly

How many randomly exploding engines do we have every weekend? Where we don't see it happening up front?

Well we've only had a single tyre failure all this year, so relative to the complexity of the two as you describe it, Vettel's tyre failure does not seem outside the bounds of probability.

[Gothrek]

Well we've only had a single tyre failure all this year, so relative to the complexity of the two as you describe it, Vettel's tyre failure does not seem outside the bounds of probability.

Yes it is, because it is random... Tires should never randomly explode.
I cannot understand how you can justify this to be honest.

[komninosm]

You hit the nail on the head. Also to make things worse, Hamilton was instructed to holding back his pace when he was behind Rosberg with the idea that Rosberg is going to pit and that he needs to make the tyres las to the end.
So not only was he was his strategy compromised, so was his pace.
Lewis needs to open his eyes and realize that this year they are trying to sneak Nico a championship.

Do you have any proof that Hamilton was told to make his tires last to the end mate?

[zac510]

Well we've only had a single tyre failure all this year, so relative to the complexity of the two as you describe it, Vettel's tyre failure does not seem outside the bounds of probability.

Yes it is, because it is random... Tires should never randomly explode.
I cannot understand how you can justify this to be honest.

I am not justifying it, I just don't feel I have enough evidence to blame Pirelli. Hopefully a bit more information comes out this weekend and we can clear this up!

[A-Bap]

I'm sorry, did I just read that as you blaming Hamilton for the Spain crash where Rosberg rammed him off track on the straight?

Wow. That's some rose tinted spectacles you have there.

As for those people complaining about Hamilton at the 2015 USGP:

1. It was wet.
2. Lewis turns into the corner to hit the apex normally
3. Understeers out wide with both cars turned in.
4. Rosberg gets run out on the exit of the corner as would be expected, where you have the option of simply backing off a little and tucking in.

What he doesn't do is deliberately drive Rosberg off the track with no intention of even turning into the apex. It's not even the same scenario, it bears no resemblance.

even if hamilton shoot rosberg with a gun, some people would say it's Rosberg’s fault

Rosberg's history of driving people off the circuit on straights is well documented and does not do him any favours when these things happen.

I strongly disagree. With the exception of his tie-ups with Hamilton, Rosberg is a very clean driver. That his only crashes of late have been via a contretemp's with Lewis, perhaps that says more about Hamilton's aggressive style than Nico's.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

You hit the nail on the head. Also to make things worse, Hamilton was instructed to holding back his pace when he was behind Rosberg with the idea that Rosberg is going to pit and that he needs to make the tyres las to the end.
So not only was he was his strategy compromised, so was his pace.
Lewis needs to open his eyes and realize that this year they are trying to sneak Nico a championship.

Do you have any proof that Hamilton was told to make his tires last to the end mate?

Lewis told that in post interview that the plan for him was to be on one stop. Why would he hold back his pace on new softs against a car with11 laps old softs, if not to maintain tyre life?

[Vasconia]

Rosberg's history of driving people off the circuit on straights is well documented and does not do him any favours when these things happen.

Could you give us several examples of this? because the only controversial incidents of Nico I can remember are with Hamilton.