Pirelli 2013

[GTSpeedster]

sorry, double post.

[WhiteBlue]

Why have they decided to conduct the test without any form of scrutiny either from the FIA or the other Teams?

You need to read the thread to get all the answers. Because it was a private test for Pirelli only and they got things done that way which they would not have gotten done if it had been published before. The test program would have been subject to negotiations and compromise. Now they have 1000 km optimum testing with data which 100% correlate to the race data. So they can even cross relate them to the performance of all other teams. And their test partner would not dare to ask any questions. Merc just ran their program totally blind as it was. It cannot get any better for Pirelli and that was exactlx what they needed at this point in time. So there you have your answer in a nut shell. Better piss off some and get the job done than keep politicking for the rest of the year and have more disasters.

[GTSpeedster]

Why have they decided to conduct the test without any form of scrutiny either from the FIA or the other Teams?

You need to read the thread to get all the answers. Because it was a private test for Pirelli only and they got things done that way which they would not have gotten done if it had been published before. The test program would have been subject to negotiations and compromise. Now they have 1000 km optimum testing with data which 100% correlate to the race data. So they can even cross relate them to the performance of all other teams. And their test partner would not dare to ask any questions. Merc just ran their program totally blind as it was. It cannot get any better for Pirelli and that was exactlx what they needed at this point in time. So there you have your answer in a nut shell. Better piss off some and get the job done than keep politicking for the rest of the year and have more disasters.

Well, let's ignore all proper procedures from now on since they are always bound to cause compromises and delays... Why do we even bother with rules and regulations? The ends justify the means as far as Pirelli and Mercedes are concerned, right? Nice...

I have another question tough. How can we be sure, I mean REALLY sure, that Mercedes didn't take the opportunity to test, over the course of this long three days of testing, some other parts or solutions of their own? Surely Pirelli would be happy to accommodate, turn the blind eye and return the favor. Plus, how do we know, I mean REALLY know for sure, that they didn’t run for more than the alleged 1.000km? We can’t, can we?

I'm guessing that's the reason behind the rule that clearly states that the teams are not allowed to test current F1 cars during the season? Particularly when there's no third party observers around, not from the FIA, not from the teams, none, no journalists, no footage, no pictures, nothing...

Very convenient indeed.

In a nut shell Mercedes CHEATED and will pay for it.

[turbof1]

Well, let's ignore all proper procedures from now on since they are always bound to cause compromises and delays... Why do we even bother with rules and regulations then? The ends justify the means as far as Pirelli and Mercedes are concerned, right? Nice...

In some cases, breaking the rules is ethically preferred. WhiteBlue putted it perfectly: with the situation completely and utterly stuck between the teams, nothing is happening anymore.

Compare it with the UN: all countries bar one want to do a necessary military intervention, but one country is constantly vetoing it.

Rules are there for a very good reason, but when rules start to get abused and block off necessary things, then you have to go to such extreme measures.

I have another question tough. How can we be sure, I mean REALLY sure, that Mercedes didn't take the opportunity to test, over the course of this long three days of testing, some other parts or solutions of their own? Surely Pirelli would be happy to accommodate, turn the blind eye and return the favor. Plus, how do we know, I mean REALLY know for sure, that they didn’t run for more than the alleged 1.000km? We can’t, can we?

It's part for Pirelli and Mercedes to prove that Mercedes did not get any advantage out of it, and part for the FIA to prove that they did. It's like a suspect for murder awaiting at his trial: at that moment only the suspect knows if he did the crime or not.

[ESPImperium]

Ferraris points:
1) Why was Mercedes using a 2013 spec car
2) Why was 2013 race drivers at the wheel

Red Bulls point
3) Why were we not asked to conduct the tyre test?

Mercedes/Pirelli will have to satisfy WMSC that all 3 of those points

Why will Merc need to? Pirelli held the test. Merc are allowed to use the current car and drivers. Merc have nothing to do with who was asks, who was choosen and who Pirelli told about the test.

In future there should be a tyre test which is official. After the Barcelona race, 1 car per team, reserve drivers.

Why Mercedes have to be transparent, and show that there was no collusion with Pirelli and also tell how many laps were done each day and by which driver and with what chassis was used. I can see Mercedes being told, or more politely punished by revoking 3 days of pre season testing next year, of which there will be 15 to my sources.Meaning Mclaren, Williams and Force India will have to do a lot more running for Mercedes early on.

As for Red Bulls point,

Id expect to see every other team being offered a 2014 tyre compound test and take it now, with race drivers. Where and when will be a tough one. After Sliverstone or Germany, even Hungary with a 2013 car. By then it may be too late for some.

As for Pirelli, i think they may either pull out or not have their contract renewed as i think Hankook and Michelin are on their way to F1, Michelin only want to supply a maximum of 4 or 5 teams, Hankook can supply the rest, if Pirelli dont stay.

I agree that in future, the teams should all do one tyre test a year, as early as they can in the season, two days 1000Km with the Test/Reserves at the wheel in order to get them time in present F1 tech, and also for them to compare the real thing to the simulator.

However testing regs is something i feel should be more regulated and more defined as there is far too many grey areas. Far too many. But i am a fan of trying to offer as many days as is possible for all types of driver, but most of all the young guys need to have at least 3 to 5 days a year in F1 tech as i feel you wouldn't have as many drivers coming into F1 stillborn as you do now.

[Huntresa]

The test was run after the race weekend. Marbles of the black tyres will have mixed up with the other ones. Try to find your own marbles inbetween different marbles 22 cars put down over 3 days.

They clean tracks.

Not if they know that there will be a test right after the race weekend. In that case they'll clean the track after the test is completed.

Why wouldnt they? They clean the tracks several times every weekend why not after the final race so you can test properly?

[SectorOne]

Why do we even bother with rules and regulations? The ends justify the means as far as Pirelli and Mercedes are concerned, right? Nice...

Why do you assume Pirelli and Mercedes have broken any rules and regulations?
Nothing has been set in stone yet so you can´t just assume Mercedes and Pirelli cheated.

[gandharva]

Mercedes warned in 2012 there was no scope for F1 in-season testing

[Jersey Tom]

As for Pirelli, i think they may either pull out or not have their contract renewed as i think Hankook and Michelin are on their way to F1, Michelin only want to supply a maximum of 4 or 5 teams, Hankook can supply the rest, if Pirelli dont stay.

I could be wrong, but I suspect that would not be much of a matchup..

[ESPImperium]

As for Pirelli, i think they may either pull out or not have their contract renewed as i think Hankook and Michelin are on their way to F1, Michelin only want to supply a maximum of 4 or 5 teams, Hankook can supply the rest, if Pirelli dont stay.

I could be wrong, but I suspect that would not be much of a matchup..

Hankook are ready, and Michelin would have to ramp up to F1.

Hankook has done DTM for the past two years. Michelin have done WSR and their rubber would wear out quite quickly for F1.

I dont know. I see it may be a mismatch, but i also see it not being a mismatch somehow,

[GTSpeedster]

Why do we even bother with rules and regulations? The ends justify the means as far as Pirelli and Mercedes are concerned, right? Nice...

Why do you assume Pirelli and Mercedes have broken any rules and regulations?
Nothing has been set in stone yet so you can´t just assume Mercedes and Pirelli cheated.

I'm not assuming anything. You should inform yourself reggarding the sporting regulations a little better as they are plain for all to see. http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... 111212.pdf

If you break this sort of rule you're a cheater. It's simple as that. If you did or did not gain advantage is irrelevant. What matters is the potential for the gain in the first place.

[Richard]

Actually, the FIA said they'd let Pirelli use a current car as long as the opportunity was offered to all teams. So it seems the FIA waived the rule about current cars, but it appears that Pirelli did not comply with the condition to offer to all teams.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 45#p433645

[GTSpeedster]

Actually, the FIA said they'd let Pirelli use a current car as long as the opportunity was offered to all teams. So it seems the FIA waived the rule about current cars, but it appears that Pirelli did not comply with the condition to offer to all teams.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 45#p433645

I don't think the FIA waived the rule at all. They couldn’t even if they wanted. What they did was simply apply maiore ad minus to make the Pirelli contract compatible with the current Sporting regulations while still making it conditional to the unanimous approval of all parties involved, nothing more.

Gandharva, just above, posted a link that helps to understand quite a bit of the issue at hand. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107726 (Mercedes warned in 2012 there was no scope for F1 in-season testing).

Last year Pirelli wrote an e-mail to all teams explaining that there was the possibility for 1000km of testing.

It was in this letter sent by Pirelli to the teams, to Bernie Ecclestone and to the FIA, that the so called "offer for all of the other teams" to take part in such a test was made. This is so called the offer the Paul Hembery so adamantly was referring yesterday as if this would excuse, more than a year later, what just took place now at Jerez...

The e-mail reads:

"Within our agreement with the FIA there is a provision to invite all teams to perform 1000km of tyre testing."

"If this is something your team would be interested in pursuing, please advise your interest so an eventual test date could be set. We would provide the track and service support."

According to Paul Hembery, at that opportunity, some of the teams replied while other didn’t.

I fail to see how anyone can stretch “not having replied” to “by not replying they have automatically accepted that others carry out the test sessions”... Am I the only one who sees how ridiculous of an excuse this is? What a weak defense, I’m really impressed by the lack of creativity over there at Pirelli.

But anyway...

A month later (still last years…) the FOTA sent another e-mail addressed to all the teams, the FIA and Pirelli making it clear that a tyre test can only take place if there is unanimous support among the teams.

"Pirelli is entitled under the terms of their agreement with the FIA to offer teams 1000km of tyre testing, subject to each team being treated equally.

However there are no provisions within the Sporting Regulations for such testing to take place in-season.

FOTA has spoken with Charlie to confirm the process going forward, and there are two options: 1. ALL teams want to take up Pirelli's offer and this is communicated to the FIA who will amend the Sporting Regulations; or 2. The test takes place out of season (and then the testing agreement comes into play)."

The statement issued by the FIA on Sunday night (http://t.co/ilKypmLcuE), that you also link in your post, says it all, leaves no doubt and very clearly states that the approval for the test was conditional on all teams being invited to take part on it and taking up to the offer (which they obviously didn’t, not last year and not this year’s where they weren’t even invited again to begin with!), and that the car should be run by Pirelli rather than Mercedes, and driven by Pirelli test drivers rather than Mercedes main drivers.

[MOWOG]

Pirelli has demonstrated stunning levels of ineptitude in so many ways and have done serious damage to their corporate image. They have clearly demonstrated that they are unfit to be the sole tire supplier to Formula One. Why they would wish to continue sailing into tremendous headwinds, especially since the teams and Bernie are dragging their feet with regard to renewing Pirelli's contract is an enigma to me.

If I were on Pirelli's board of directors, I would vote to shut down all F1 tire production as of today and tell the sport to go get their tires at Tire Rack!

[Jersey Tom]

As for Pirelli, i think they may either pull out or not have their contract renewed as i think Hankook and Michelin are on their way to F1, Michelin only want to supply a maximum of 4 or 5 teams, Hankook can supply the rest, if Pirelli dont stay.

I could be wrong, but I suspect that would not be much of a matchup..

Hankook are ready, and Michelin would have to ramp up to F1.

Hankook has done DTM for the past two years. Michelin have done WSR and their rubber would wear out quite quickly for F1.

I dont know. I see it may be a mismatch, but i also see it not being a mismatch somehow,

Hankook are ready? How do you figure? Or in what regard? They've never built a single F1 tire before. Do they have the factory / build equipment? Do they have any clue on what type of mold profiles, constructions, and tread compounds they'd need to use? I feel like DTM just isn't anywhere near close enough to be a comparison point (much with Pirelli's previous experience before joining F1). Do they have the infrastructure to support the teams testing and data needs?

Michelin on the other hand has been in F1 before - quite successfully - and I think just have an immense amount more technical expertise, racing background and resource to bring to bear. Not all tire companies or automotive suppliers are the same. Michelin I want to say are literally 10x larger than Hankook (at least on a worldwide employee basis).

If I were a F1 team going into a season where the options were Michelin or Hankook, I'd be desperately doing anything I could to get on the Michelin list. Maybe after some time if Hankook poured tons of money and engineers at the series they might be able to achieve parity.. but even that would be tough! I think it just wouldn't be remotely close competition.

Just my outlook on things.